Catherine Harrison on Revelios, Soundcheck, Curiosity, Leadership & Mental Health in Music // #069

heartdea13r Podcast w/ chr1stoph3r g0nda // Episode 69 // Catherine Harrison (President & Founder of Revelios)

Episode Summary:

This conversation explores Catherine Harrison’s (President & Founder of Revelios) journey from corporate pharmaceuticals to a focus on mental health, music, and industry research. It delves into personal growth, leadership, mental health practices, and the importance of authenticity and curiosity in life and work.

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Full Episode Transcript:

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (00:28.381)
All right, Catherine, why don’t we?

Why don’t we start here? So your bio, the one that’s on your website is basically the perfect blueprint for not only what our conversation should cover, but there are numerous points of agreement in there for me in terms of how you approach life, your values, they seem to be really aligned with me. So I can kind of dissect the bio and use those as talking points, but tell me about, you know, your

initial trajectory, like where’d you grow up? How did you become this woman who valued mental health and music and, you know, entrepreneurship?

Catherine Harrison (01:12.046)
Well, I was born and raised in the GTA, the Greater Toronto Area, primarily in the West part in Mississauga. I was born in Port Credit, Ontario, as a matter of fact. And, you know, in the mid-60s. So I had a pretty, you know, I’m gonna guess a…

normal childhood in terms of normal slash dysfunctional like I think most people did, you know. And so I grew up in in sort of Mississauga, Brampton area, went to university, got out of university and started working in the corporate world in pharmaceuticals for was there for 23 years, primarily in the commercial.

stuff area. And then for the last 12 years have been running a consulting practice focused on organizational effectiveness, human centered leadership and mental health in the workplace or psychological health and safety. You know, along that in parallel to that, I have always been

really attracted to and connected to music. I had a really young father and he was into all the things of the 60s and 70s and played guitar and you know I had so there was a lot of music being played. was kind of you know soaked in it from a young age. I learned to play a little bit of guitar when I was 13 but I got bored with it.

kind of quickly because I was really into sports during my high school years and it just seemed like a lot of work and my fingers were sore and I was like, yeah, I’m not gonna do this. I think I took one year of piano possibly and never really learned theory other than through doing it. So anyways, I didn’t really even start my musical career for lack of a better term until I was

Catherine Harrison (03:29.262)
out of university. So I didn’t write my first song till I was like 23 or something like that. And that’s when I really got into playing and writing and performing and recording back on a little four track, you know, and and playing some of the small places in Toronto. So I came to it late and but since then it has been a very meaningful anchor to

my identity, which is I really do feel strongly that, you know, being a creative person, like I love to create stuff doesn’t even matter what it is. If you give me a box of materials, I’m going to want to make stuff of it. So whether it’s writing or whether it’s painting or whether it’s music, I love making stuff. I love communicating the human experience, good, or sad with others, either as a consumer of it or a participant in it or a purveyor of it.

And so my musical career, for lack of a better term, ran alongside my revenue generating career. You know, like I did, I wasn’t in the music industry. I was in the music community for decades. And it has really just been in the last couple of years that I have started doing what I do in the music industry and bringing sort of my…

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (04:40.731)
Mm-hmm.

Catherine Harrison (04:54.464)
my research and my academic and my organizational lens to the music industry. And so that’s been really, it’s been very interesting because I had a lot of assumptions around, you know, what the music industry meant based on my experience as a member of the community. And so, yeah, and so currently, you know, I do what I do. I do research, I do consulting, I still, you know, write books and articles and such with quite a…

a specialization in the music industry because there, what I noticed is there wasn’t a lot of this work being done in the music industry. And I thought, huh, that’ll be an interesting exploration. And hopefully through this work, you know, I’ll be able to bring hopefully some value or some insights or to learn something myself about how this extremely human thing called music is tethered to and, know,

process through this thing called industry. so it’s been, it’s been a very interesting experience, Chris, I will say.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (05:59.857)
Yeah.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (06:05.113)
I can imagine. And we’ll talk so much more about what you’re doing now with the music industry mindset. Tell me a little bit more. you’ve got this kind of growing up a balance of academia and sports or academia and arts through parents and schooling. You’ve got a master’s in psychology, I believe. Did you see?

Catherine Harrison (06:25.698)
Yeah, and that I just did like a few years ago. I did that in my 50s, actually. I went back to school after the pandemic because I, you know, as you recall with the pandemic, the really the conversation around mental health in general and then mental health connected to work because work was so topsy-turvy. It was really amplified. And so within my work, it was really amplified. And I really wanted to lean into that. And for me,

the only way I felt comfortable really feeling like I could lend that level of expertise to the work that I was doing was to actually get some expertise. And to me, that meant going back and getting a master’s in psychology, quite specifically not focused on clinical psychology. I don’t want to be a therapist all day, but really looking at it through the lens of how does mental health

and what are the various physical, emotional, psychological, and social factors that contribute to mental health? How do they actually show up in workplaces? And how are they actually tethered to leadership practices and other dynamics? So that was like, I just finished that a few years ago, actually.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (07:38.301)
That’s awesome. Good for you. mean, you know, it’s very small point in there that it’s never too late to do the thing, right? Whether it’s schooling, fitness, mindset, whether you’re 10 or 80, just do it. Just get.

Catherine Harrison (07:46.094)
you

Catherine Harrison (07:52.462)
I will say, the funny thing is about that is like, I went to university, as I said, back in 1984. I’ve always been interested in in sort of art and science. at the time I was studying, know, phys ed and kines and economics. And I don’t know if it’s that I can’t decide. I’m just interested in so many different things. And I like finding the way these things balance each other out or.

connect in really interesting ways. But I will say it was really funny because going to university in the 80s versus going to university a few years ago, I’m glad that I had a son who had gone to university recently because he coached me on how to navigate, you know, so much online stuff that I was like, how do I do this? Like, it wasn’t the content or the learning or the work. It was just navigating learning systems. And I was just like, I don’t know.

this thing. Like we had libraries and we had like punch cards when I went to university and I had a typewriter with whiteout you know. So that was that was a really interesting experience is to really compare and contrast two you know similar experiences but vastly different.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (09:10.877)
know the irony with what you said there just that the anecdote alone is that that in and of itself is the lesson for mental health in my opinion. That you start with the I, you ask a why, you have the wherewithal to go inwards and maybe say I don’t know about this or something’s off and then you seek help outward and then go forward with the learning and the change and the growth.

Catherine Harrison (09:37.132)
Yeah, mean, I think that’s, know, the, well, growth is the operative word, right? And to your earlier point, I think health and wellbeing in general and mental health and wellbeing and psychological health and wellbeing and social health and wellbeing in particular are really connected to a human being’s intentional commitment or

just ongoing investigation of like, hey, what’s that all about? And being curious, following that curiosity, checking yourself and your own fixations or biases or whatever. I have to do that myself every day. We can all get kind of trapped in our own echo chamber and not just social media, but our own sort of thinking.

And I do think that, you know, the people who I interact with or observe who stay, you know, really engaged in the world and feel, really, you know, like, I don’t even know if well is the right term, but are the ones who stay curious and who say, well, you know, who says I can’t do that at that age? Or who says I have to do it exactly that way? Or who says I have to continue if I’ve started something and I go,

This is nothing like what I expected. Like it’s okay to change our mind. You know, it’s okay to learn and fail. It’s okay to learn and succeed. but just stay really present and curious and open to different perspectives. And I don’t even know if we stayed on the same track that you started with. but yeah, going back to school in your fifties is very different than in your twenties. I will say that.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (11:22.845)
Mm-hmm.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (11:32.381)
Cool. I think we are on the right track because I believe that I am always where I’m supposed to be. And there’s been so much change in my life over the last few years. And the more I let go of expectations, of time, of these things, the happier I am. ironically, the more I get done, the more I accomplish. Help me understand how you went from this corporate world. You said pharmaceuticals was that the industry to.

not just an entrepreneur, human-centered leadership expert and mental health strategist. That’s a huge difference. At least I think it is. What’s the jump? What was the aha moment for you?

Catherine Harrison (12:08.727)
Mm.

Catherine Harrison (12:12.238)
Well, wasn’t, interestingly, there was both a jump but also just a little shuffle. So, you know, in pharma…

Again, it was really the combination. The thing I liked about it was it dovetailed art and science and business. You had to be creative. You had to communicate effectively. You were dealing with really interesting things scientifically from a clinical perspective. You were dealing with healthcare. You were dealing with patients. were dealing with all of the business and the economics and the whole corporate enterprise, good, bad, or sad. The pharma industry is one of those industries that has a lot of great stuff about it and a lot

of less than great stuff about it. And I’m certainly very grateful. will say that one of the upsides is a very rich investment in the development of its professionals and in leadership and capability. So I was really privy to and took advantage of.

so much learning and development, right? Whether it’s leadership skills or marketing skills, learning and development, know, business and accounting and marketing and strategy and all of those things that quite frankly, without that, I would not have been able to be a successful consultant. All of that stuff really gave me not only capabilities and skills, but like an understanding of how organizations can work effectively or not. And and so

You know, within that though, I was always most interested in how the human beings within the organization or outside of the organization, you know, operated. so human centered leadership and also, as I mentioned, I was kind of this, you know, leading a double life. was very artsy and musical and really into meditation and hiking and biking and hang gliding and camping. Like just, you know, I like doing all these different things.

Catherine Harrison (14:16.11)
And I would try to bring even some of my corporate roles that perspective, know, that perspective of like look up and ask questions and connect. And why are our agendas so fricking busy? Why aren’t we napping more? You know, I’m like, what about eating properly and being able to go out for a walk by the lake, you know? And so I was always investigating that. And long story short,

there came a point where I was working in an organization in a leadership role and I was working for what I would describe as a toxic leader and I got to a point where I was really rocked by the lack of alignment between what the company said it valued and the behavior that I was experiencing.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (15:02.333)
Mm-hmm.

Catherine Harrison (15:15.09)
And to the point where one day I really, I don’t know if it was a breakdown per se, but I went home and I looked myself in the mirror. I’m like, what the fuck? I can’t be here anymore. Like I can’t be here anymore. I feel like a fraud. I can’t be here anymore. There was just no other way of saying that. And I didn’t have this plan.

to which I would be going to like, I’m gonna do this thing and then I’m gonna leave and I was just like, I just know I can’t be here anymore. So I left and you know, it sounds like a really simple thing, but it was a very difficult decision. I had built a lot of my identity on that workplace, on the relationships that I had within that workplace, on being successful and…

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (15:46.865)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (16:09.455)
I, it really, it really rocks me. It really rocked my world for a couple months. I was, I was not doing well, to be honest with you. was like, and I guess I was, I don’t know, 45, six at the time. Yeah.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (16:24.709)
Yeah. Can I ask a question before you keep going? I believe that for me, when I ascribe my identity without as opposed to within, I run the risk of things like that happening, right? So that the values that I’m holding as important need to be in me, not somewhere else. Was that something that happened for you?

Catherine Harrison (16:39.833)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (16:48.981)
Yes, and in fact, I think that that was part of that mirror moment that my values were and continue to be. And I know that this word is overused and misused, but authenticity, integrity, meaning you say what you you do, what you say you’re going to do. Authenticity in terms of you say what you.

you know, you do what you say you’re gonna do. You know, don’t bullshit me. I don’t like it. I’d rather you just give it to me straight and we can have an honest conversation. I have a real radar for and dislike for superficial, bullshitty kind of situations. And I felt in that…

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (17:13.831)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (17:37.793)
situation that I was also, if I stayed, I was really not being true to myself and to my values to that point. So those two things were happening, I think, simultaneously.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (17:43.804)
Yeah.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (17:49.053)
That’s amazing. I mean, just to be aware of it, and to be gifted the opportunity to make that decision and change your trajectory, I think is so special. The BS comment, I don’t even know why I said BS, because I feel like I shouldn’t swear, but I can swear it’s my podcast.

Catherine Harrison (18:09.295)
I was just about to say, a second, he said BS, but I went all the way. Am I in trouble now?

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (18:12.221)
No, not at all. That bullshit meter, think that works both ways though, because you I’m like you, I’m allergic to that. don’t like inauthentic. Just be yourself. Be who you are. like own that, love it, nurture it, and let us connect.

But then when it comes to talking to yourself, the same thing applies. You can’t BS yourself and be like, I’m fine. That thing that happened is probably not a big deal. You have to be honest, whether it’s within or without. So you got to a point in your life and career where you said,

toxic leadership this doesn’t align with me and I’ll really quickly add that I have experienced that as well and I’ve also realized now the toxic leadership doesn’t have to do with money or power or hierarchy it has to do with what you just said values because different people can have different values and you might have a leader who is not wealthy but who’s still a toxic leader it comes down to what their

living the truth that they’re living which most of the time is that bullshit right it’s that bullshit

Catherine Harrison (19:19.043)
Well, I think it really comes down to behavior. I mean, I think one thing we have to be clear of and aware of is the assumptions that we make or sort of mythological assignments that we might make about.

you know, why somebody does things, but really a toxic leader, it comes down to behavior. What are they doing? And how is that doing either aligned with the values of the organization, of what that person might be saying, or for your own values, right? Why they’re doing it, really that’s for them and their therapist to figure out, right? Or them in their own mirror to figure out. And to your point too, I think I had probably struggled with elements

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (19:52.763)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (20:06.059)
of that throughout my entire career. Again, I’m kind of a weird cat, right? I’m like this super artsy person over here. And then I really love business and I really love science and research. And I’m constantly grappling with making sense of those things. Like, who am I really? And finally at this age and stage, I’m like, I’m all those things. And depending on the day, one might be dialed up more than the other.

But I think that that notion of, you know, getting clear on who you are, I mean, I think that’s a lifelong pursuit too though, Chris. You know, like I’m in many ways still grappling with who am I really and who am I in which circumstances. And even to the authenticity piece, you know, there are times when

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (20:44.797)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (21:03.531)
strategically and in a very reasonable way, you don’t necessarily want to be fully authentic, like open the kimono and hear, you know, that might not be a good idea. So it’s okay. That too could be an authentic play, which is I understand that in this situation or in a, you know, in a given room, know, authentically, I do tend to

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (21:17.308)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (21:33.643)
swear. That’s kind of my thing. You can ask my mother, she doesn’t like it. I tend to use colorful language. That being said, in certain situations, I know not to be that authentic self because it’s not going to serve me or the people around me, you know. So it’s that constant balance that I think is really important for us to recognize too. Like, I think that’s the really crux of this whole conversation and certainly the work that I do.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (21:49.829)
Okay.

Catherine Harrison (22:01.131)
It can’t be a binary conversation. It can’t be like, just go do this or just go do it. It’s like, yes, and, and, and, and depends. And, you know.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (22:15.259)
Yeah, I totally agree. I want to talk about this transition point or the inflection point in your life and where you then went from there with rebellious. But daring to get a little abstract for a second with your life lived and the level of study so far, do you think that

societally that maybe there’s been a much whether it’s intentional or not I won’t comment on that but is there a larger loss of the sense of self than there was previously did we I mean I know there’s always been a who am I what’s the point of life but do you think as a society as a people in previous generations we had a better idea of self-identity and more of that’s been lost over the last 50 hundred years

Catherine Harrison (23:04.205)
Yeah, I do think that. I certainly can’t like quantify it in terms of like when exactly it happened, but I know that there is a lot of study by whether they be social anthropologists or social psychologists and other folks. And certainly my own experience and observations is in the last, let’s say 25 years, and certainly it is…

it has accelerated in the past five years even, even post pandemic, but there has been a loss of a lot of social identity cushions they’re called in sort of psychology land, which is, know, families to our earlier conversations, families are very dispersed now. So we don’t live in the same community where we had our

family of origin and then we meet somebody and we have we live down the road and we have our and we we go to the same church and we go to the same bowling league and we actually you know see each other at the same park and all of our kids play hockey does that happen yes but generally speaking our lives have become very fragmented there’s a trend towards you know i’m not a religious person but there’s a trend away from church which is really a

a community center in many cases where people find belonging and shared values and a shared faith in something bigger than themselves, which is really healthy. It has become very fragmented, very fringy, right? It’s very us versus them right now. And then you add the element of, I guess, two other elements.

social media for sure, which is we are always only looking at other people in their best light and comparing ourselves and finding ourselves, you know, lacking. And that’s marketing 101, which is you are missing something and I have the solution. But in this day and age, regardless of age, obviously it’s worse for younger people who are more influenced by this.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (25:06.215)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (25:17.251)
But regardless of age, you’re not smart enough, strong enough, rich enough, educated enough, savvy enough, articulate enough, balanced enough. You’re just not enough. And it’s really hard for an individual to manage that strong sense of self when you are swimming in this ecosystem that is designed to make you feel like crap about yourself because that is the whole commerce.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (25:28.494)
No.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (25:47.033)
huh.

Catherine Harrison (25:47.093)
so, so there’s that. And then, and then I think too, like, you know, we, I was just talking about this this morning with someone, there’s something called the paradox of choice. It was studied a long time ago, but basically it’s like, when you have so many choices, you can’t make any choices. Right. And so what I find too, overwhelming and difficult to your point around identity is when I can be anything.

And when I can have, and I don’t mean buy anything, but when there are just so many choices all the time, it becomes paralyzing. And that too makes me feel actually like, I can’t even make a decision anymore. Like I just want to buy a freaking lawnmower and there’s like 60 choices and I have to, you know, or, or, or, you know, and there’s just so much noise in the system that’s just constantly at us. So I think that the

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (26:25.009)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (26:47.059)
that to that question, yes, there’s been a very profound like socio-cultural relational change as the world socioeconomically has changed. And it’s I think it’s really hard to be a human and to be grounded. It takes a lot of extra attention and effort to do that.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (27:08.955)
Yeah, yeah, I tend to agree. It’s funny. I think of the pandemic. I used to have this good bad. I’m really trying to get more into a place of oneness, that things are just things and you can assign whatever polarity to it that you want. And I’m by no means saying that the pandemic is a good thing. Everyone’s experience with it was different. And for me, there was many things about it were bad, but I turned it into a positive or a net positive by saying like it was a huge awakening for me.

I learned so much about myself. I changed a lot about my values and beliefs and what I was interested in and what I was studying. And I think that for a lot of people, that was the shake that made them realize there was a lot of noise and that we need to focus more on signal. And the irony with the filters and the lens that you mentioned is that…

That’s all outward, right? Like when you’re looking at things through a lens, from the advent of the television forward, maybe something prior to that, but like it was always lens, looking through something. It was always taking our attention away from ourselves.

how are we gonna know our Icky Guy, purpose, what we are supposed to do, what we love to do, if we keep seeking it elsewhere, especially now with all the filters and the perfection that we see online, as opposed to like, you know, actually sitting with yourself and saying, what do I love? What makes me want to go? And it sounds like coming back to the conversation, that’s what happened. And you had a revelation.

Catherine Harrison (28:45.56)
I’m

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (28:46.607)
Rebellious and you, you, you change your path. Now, obviously there’s some Harry Potter stuff that comes up when you Google rebellious, but I love that there was.

Catherine Harrison (28:54.767)
Which by the way, I didn’t know when we named that, I didn’t know that it was after we had named it and launched it, my son said, you know, that’s a Harry Potter spell. was like, what? I had no idea. And I was like, what does it mean? And then he told me, said, well that fits actually. That’s cool.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (29:13.319)
Well, so tell me about the intention of the name because I personally, the Latin angle is super cool. And then there’s the Spanish to English translation of Revelation. Is that what you were intending?

Catherine Harrison (29:23.885)
Yeah, yeah, it was it was that, know, so the funny thing is that the sort of genesis of this name, when I when I so when I left, can we can we go back to that thread of when I left and I started the consulting practice? I needed a name, right?

And I had had this production company on my music side called Purple Voodoo Productions for several years, just in terms of ways to like do the music and do and promote gigs and stuff like that. And long story short, the consulting practice was called…

and still a corporation is called Purple Voodoo Incorporated for that reason. Purple is a combination of blue and red, art and science, logic and heart. Voodoo is like the spiritual quest around, you know, seeing yourself but within community. And there was all this stuff to go along with it. And when I decided to really lean into the mental health thing, I…

was concerned that purple voodoo would be seen. Apparently there’s a weed marijuana strain called purple voodoo, which of course, again, I didn’t know. And I was like, I don’t want people to think that my whole mission is to like sell weed for mental health. Because people used to Google my company go, you know, that’s a weed, right? Like, I know, I didn’t know when I named it. So, know, so when I got into the mental health, I’m like, we need a new name. So back to the drawing board.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (30:35.079)
Hahaha!

Catherine Harrison (30:51.455)
And Reveleos came out of…

Réveiller in French is to wake up and like you say, know, to have a revelation is to have an insight and to wake up. And then iOS was like our inner operating system is like, how do we wake up or have insights about our inner operating system, meaning, you know, our mind and our hearts and everything. And so that’s what it that’s how it came out. And it was kind of unique and it was kind of cool. It rhymes with rebellious, you know, and I was like, I don’t want to be a little bit of a rebel.

and a change maker and then my son said, and it’s a Harry Potter spell.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (31:31.165)
Well, I mean that the Latin thing for me was when I started pure in audio, somehow along the way, I came up with Vita Veritas Vox Papuli, Life Truth Voice of the People. And my business partner, Lance, who’s also one of my best friends and an extremely intelligent man, he helped take

Those in the initial ideas as well as my core beliefs and turn them into our 13 V’s our values that we have on our website that we live and die by as people and as a company and so I go to Latin a lot and then for me when I looked it up it was I I Reveal I unveil I uncover, you know, and those are such

Catherine Harrison (32:14.543)
That’s what Rebellious means? I love it!

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (32:16.221)
Yeah, and there’s such positive like manifestations in the in the present tense and affirmative and so I was like wow this is so sharp so you it was destined to be rebellious, rebellious right.

Catherine Harrison (32:27.947)
Yes, I guess it was. I’ve never looked up the Latin, so thank you for that gift. I love that. And I was going to ask you what V13 stands for, but now I know.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (32:36.167)
V13 is actually elite speak, which is the internet language of mixing letters and numbers for the French word vie, la vie, because I was a philosophy minor and did a lot of reading when I was in university, mostly because I had to and then because I wanted to. And as Nietzsche once said, without music, life would be a mistake. So for me, V13 or V13 media is just life media because all of this.

Catherine Harrison (32:43.311)
Hmm.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (33:05.149)
is the thing, you know, this is the reason. So that’s where I’m going with that. Let me take a step back though. Purple Voodoo, are you a Jimi Hendrix fan?

Catherine Harrison (33:14.211)
Yes. That’s where the name came from. So the name came to me back to our whole conversation before we were recording around BC. When I lived out West in the 90s, skied quite a bit and on a chairlift with my drummer at the time, were coming up with, we needed to come up with a name because we were doing this gig and we wanted to raise money for this nonprofit or something. I’m like, we need a name.

And we jokingly said something around purple something. And we were like, Jimi Hendrix. And then it was like, well, there’s purple haze and voodoo child. And maybe it be purple voodoo or haze child. Like we just started messing around. And by the time we were like at the top of the hill, we’re like, let’s just call it purple voodoo. And it was this joke, but then it ended up sticky. Like my corporation remains called that. It’s just not, not as public anymore, but yes, the Genesis is Jimi.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (34:09.405)
You

Catherine Harrison (34:13.839)
I am sure I was. Ironically, with all of the talk about Purple Voodoo and Jimi Hendrix, I don’t really do weed. That’s not my jam. Yeah.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (34:14.205)
Are you sure you weren’t high on that chairlift?

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (34:25.885)
It’s all good. Well, I appreciate all of the context and I feel like that does a good job of getting us to like present day with Reveleos and soundcheck. I love a good pun. I am a father. I love dad jokes. So like sound check for me was immediately like, that’s so smart. Cause you got like, you know, sound and volume, but like sound mind and checking in with Reveleos. Like what did you set out to do before?

the sound check survey happened.

Catherine Harrison (34:56.343)
Yeah, so, you know, again, the even the consulting practice was kind of by accident. I came at a farm. I didn’t really know what to do. I started talking to people and asking lots of questions and through conversations, they would be like, I don’t know, could you help me with that? And I very just organically started doing some consulting work. And then during my masters, I had because of, my

participation in the music community as a musician, but also my work in pharma and understanding business and as a consultant, I started to be invited into various music industry associations, nonprofits to be on their board or to be an advisor. This started probably around 2018, 2017, 2018. And so,

Just through that work, I started investigating, like, you know, what’s the experience of people in the music industry, the people who work and require income within that industry, with their mental health, when it comes to addiction and recovery, when it comes to ways of working. So I started that. And then, as I mentioned, I went back to school just after the pandemic. And you have to choose things to study. You know, get a project and you have to, you know, study X.

And so I chose to study workplace mental health and the music industry. Why not? And through that investigation, realized that there was not a lot of Canadian data. There was a lot of research that had been done around the world for the past 10, 20 years, even prior to, with respect to mental health in the music industry and quite specifically around artists.

but there had been very little done in Canada. And I really wanted to understand that. And so I started framing out what a Canadian study might look like. And that really was the seed of what became Soundcheck and how to really create a baseline of data.

Catherine Harrison (37:05.163)
across the country, across roles, across demographics, and gather all that data so that we could also, you know, investigate what various factors contributes to worsening mental health, or is there a certain profile of individual or province or genre where it is worse or better or whatever.

Yeah, so it really started during my masters when I was doing all of these various projects. I just started investigating the music industry at large and recognized an opportunity to bring some Canadian data to it.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (37:37.443)
amazing. I love how it’s organic, you know, and I think that this we talked a little bit about purpose, you life purpose earlier. If you’re if you stay curious and you

Allow yourself to think about what it is that you love or that interests you and you pull at that strength. It’ll lead you down the path that is best suited for you and that is the most fulfilling for you. You probably didn’t set out to do this survey, but you’re a musician, you love art, you wanted to go back to school, you knew that the values weren’t in line with you, that there was a new path, you took that fork.

and it led you to here. It’s also really funny and I think this is the whole point of this conversation or these types of conversation. Life is that you ended up naming your company Rebellious and you didn’t even realize until now that there’s the Latin translation of I uncover. And the irony is that you were going in and uncovering or discovering yourself during this whole process in order to help other people uncover themselves.

Catherine Harrison (38:38.819)
it’s awesome. It’s awesome. I love this whole thing. That’s super cool. Now I’m to have to, yeah, I’m going to like, I’m going to put the Latin thing up on my whiteboard. I love it. Yeah. And you know, even that, even that journey, you know, again, we’re like really distilling things into headlines and soundbites here, Chris, for this conversation, but even the process of, getting the study done, you know, I applied for a bunch of grants here in Canada to…

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (38:47.952)
You

Catherine Harrison (39:08.405)
fund it, didn’t get anywhere, finally reached out to some folks in the nonprofit space. They were interested in helping, not with funding, but in helping to promote it and get participation, which was obviously really important because who knew Catherine? Nobody. But in so doing that, I really learned an invaluable lesson, which

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (39:27.665)
Mm-hmm.

Catherine Harrison (39:36.923)
I lost a lot of myself in that journey too because I felt like I had to turn over so much of my work into this, into the industry, into the system. And I felt like the whole origin story got lost. I felt like I was kind of losing the…

the whole purpose of it. And it wasn’t until just recently where I’ve kind of, you know, reconnected those dots and have started being really open and honest about the fact that, you know, there was no funding that was provided for this research. This was a volunteer project.

and any monies that had to go out for other research assistance or the software or the accounting or the data cleansing or the marketing or whatever that was funded by Revalios because I wanted to ensure that we were able to bring forth the findings in a way that was true and that there would be no political pressure to not talk about some of these things.

And that has been, it’s been an interesting journey, I will say. I see research as a way to bring collective evidence into the light and to give people information with which they can make decisions and choices. It’s been really interesting to see the reaction to the research.

You know, and to our earlier point, it’s hard to not actually take that personally because I’ve spent so much time, you know, being involved in this. Anyways, I went off on a little side channel there.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (41:30.333)
No, I appreciate it. It’s funny how it’s just data, it’s just information and sure you can put it together and see a picture overall, but that doesn’t mean it’s one specific thing or that you have to do this. I like how you took the risk and you self-funded in order to stay as agnostic as possible with the research. I think that is very important. And I’ll come back to Soundcheck specifically in a second.

You’re helping professionals adapt, perform, thrive. Those are the words on your site. What I didn’t understand and I’d love a really quick breakdown of is bio-psycho-social practices. And you have a very strong presence of human first on your websites. Tell me a little bit about what it is that you’re practicing or applying to these leaders.

Catherine Harrison (42:23.673)
Yeah, well that term the biopsychosocial factors of mental health, that was specifically my area of study doing my masters in psychology. And what that means is we look at not just

We don’t look at the diagnosis of a specific mental illness or disorder. We look at what biological or physical factors, what psychological, emotional, cognitive factors, or what sociological factors impact one’s mental health. And when we think about mental health, we often immediately think about mental illness. If I say, you we want to talk about mental health, people automatically go, do you have anxiety, depression? They start, they start introducing things like neurodivergence, which has nothing to do

mental health, that’s a neurodevelopmental conversation as opposed to mental health. Mental health is an aspirational state, just like health, that really describes an individual state of being that enables them to optimize their cognitive, emotional, interrelational…

capabilities, it enables them to handle life stressors. Like humans are built for stress. Stress in and of itself is not a bad thing. We need a little stress in the system to actually be, you know, motivated to do anything. mental health is something we aspire to. And there are many factors that contribute to that. So the bio part is your basic human needs, sleep, rest, shelter, food.

water, clean air, the ability to be healthy enough to fight disease, right? So those are those, without those, and there’s a lot of great research that show people who have chronic pain or chronic illness, or who live in, you know, deeply environmentally depleted places have the worst mental health. Why? Because those things actually contribute to greater stress, anxiety, depression, cognitive, psychological function.

Catherine Harrison (44:27.203)
The psychological part is really our ability to regulate emotions and perform optimally, cognitively, to problem solve, to manage our reactivity and to access our executive function. And then of course the social is we are social beings. Human beings must, unless we are the 1 % of the sort sociopathic, psychopathic, they don’t really care, but…

human beings need to feel a sense of belonging and connection and social engagement to be well. And so we look at those kinds of factors, the social dynamics, things like poverty, things like racism or sexism or climate crises or various other, whether it be childhood traumas or whether it be other socioeconomic factors. Like right now,

You know, I still do coach and counsel people fairly regularly. And they’re like, I’m just so stressed out these days. I said, if I’m talking to somebody who is an adult and you’re not a little bit stressed out these days, I’m concerned about you. Because it means you’re so detached from like, read the paper. There’s a lot of things going on right now that should cause concern.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (45:36.977)
Hahaha

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (45:46.961)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (45:47.309)
Now, we don’t want it to become debilitating. We have to learn, you know, tools and strategies to manage those symptoms from worsening. But if you’re not stressed at all, I, you know, I don’t know. And that means that you’re actually paying attention about the state of the world. And because those things do contribute to our mental health. And that’s what that sort of biopsychosocial means is you don’t look at mental health.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (46:04.561)
definitely.

Catherine Harrison (46:13.889)
from just a purely diagnostic lens, you look at all the things that cause it or can prevent it, that can promote good mental health or that can remediate bad mental health.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (46:25.883)
Yeah, I agree with you. I’ll comment on that really quickly. I love the idea of feeling something, you know, that if you’re not feeling something, you’re detached. I’ve had a few artists say, like, I still get nervous before I go on stage. And I’ve done this for 30 years. I’ve performed in front of all these crowds. I’m nervous because I care.

Catherine Harrison (46:49.209)
Thank you.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (46:49.531)
I’m nervous because I’m worried about making sure that I’m delivering a good performance. Not because I’m scared of this, because you have an expectation or a hope that you deliver something. So yeah, I mean, to live in modern society,

You should care. Life is political. You don’t have to be into politics, but you have to care. If you’re a father, if you’re in a business, whatever it is, there’s definitely a lot to be stressed or concerned about. It doesn’t mean you have to turn it into a negative, but feel the feelings.

Catherine Harrison (47:22.105)
Yeah.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (47:22.493)
I love that you also said, you you very specifically define mental health because I feel the same way that you this whole concept of a mental health awareness month for me is ludicrous because It should be the whole year. It should never stop You don’t go to the gym for six months and then have a fit body for the rest of your life You have to keep having conversations and learning to strengthen your mind and resolve I mean in the old days it was the

Catherine Harrison (47:32.879)
system.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (47:48.861)
the old days. In previous generations it was the pubs, was the churches, it was the communities, it was the town square. People got together and they shouted and they yelled and they conversed and that’s how ideas were shared. That’s how people got together and united. It was not…

separated, was together. So I’m with you, I firmly encourage everyone to always converse both internally and externally, whether it’s with a therapist or not. It’s not about, I got stuff I need to heal. No, it’s about you need to do the reps. You need to do the reps to have a strong mind.

Catherine Harrison (48:24.451)
Yeah, yeah, and even the notion of the nervousness, one of the things is one of the tools that we talk about regularly is reframing, right? And so when I, because I too, before I go on, I always have a sense of nervousness to your point, I care, I wanna do a good job, whether I’m performing or whether I’m speaking or whatever. And one of the things that we talk about is, somatically or physically speaking,

nervousness and excitement feel the same. So you can reframe it and you can say, my gosh, I am so excited because you’re, that’s kind of the same, like the butterflies and the thing and the thing, you know, when you’re so excited, you’re kind of stressed out. So you can even reframe that. And like you say, when, you know, if I’m like stressed by the world, it means I care. It means I’m an active citizen. means, yes, I can’t do everything, but it means I care.

I have to be thoughtful about how much I engage with that stuff, especially these days where you can go down a rabbit hole into hell really, really fast. have a special diet of media and social media where I only allow myself so much because I find it too emotionally disturbing, quite frankly, and intellectually disturbing. But just thinking about how you reframe and contextualize any feeling or thought, and then to your point,

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (49:43.591)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (49:52.543)
Like talk about it, talk about it to yourself, whether it’s journaling, talk about it to, you know, a an unbiased third party, like a therapist or, you know, spiritual advisor, and certainly to your friends or your family. And and, know, generally speaking, when we are open about our own limitations and foibles and fallibilities, that’s when we connect the most, you know.

I say this to people all the time, you know, I do this stuff for a living. I’m considered an expert in certain spaces and I still feel like I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about half the time because I’m a human. And so I’m always going to feel a little bit like an imposter and a little bit like, like, I don’t know what I’m talking. I mean, I’m just trying to get through the day like everybody else, you know? So I think that just staying grounded in our in our human fallibility and in that constant quest to

explore and be curious and connect is just really important. It goes back to like, there’s no right or wrong. There’s no, you know, on off. It’s just this constant navigation and balance.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (51:02.555)
Yeah, so going going, you know, kind of continuing this chain of thought, but then tying into what you do with teaching leaders, you know, high level executives, whatever it is, you’re talking to them about mindset and balance and all these things. Is there are there any specific tricks or states of mind that they have to be in to actually start to not just listen to you, but hear?

see it and then enact it? In your experience are there, do you have to be in a meditative state? Do you have to be well fed? Do you have to be humble enough to know that you don’t know best? What are the things?

Catherine Harrison (51:42.903)
So yeah, sure. That all sounds fantastic. Back to biopsychosocial, right? Like we are more apt to be primed for learning or exploration when we have our basic needs met. We’ve had some sleep. you know, we’re not hungry or really thirsty or really angry or really pissed off or really ill. So yes to those things. I think, you know, the thing that you said that is probably the most important primer is humility.

which to me goes hand in hand with curiosity, which in my estimation, I just wrote a book about this, is, I believe that there are some core pillars required by leaders and curiosity is number one, because without curiosity, you’re never gonna look up.

You’re never going to ask why. You’re never going to explore. You’re never going to challenge yourself, actually. You’ll never sit back. You’ll never be genuinely interested in what other people have to say, why they have to say it, what else might be going on. You won’t be genuinely interested in all the world things we just talked about. So being curious, I think, goes hand in hand with being humble enough to recognize that the more you think you know everything, the less you actually know.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (52:51.581)
That’s so funny.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (53:02.353)
There’s a movie on Netflix, I watched it a couple years back called Don’t Look Up. It almost feels like, I’m not saying anything, I’m just speculating that it almost feels like we’ve been stuck in this flow as a society of being taught what to think, not how to think.

And we need to get back to the roots of humanity, is that inquisitive nature, is, you know, discovering fire, discovering different foods, working with each other, constantly looking up. What do you think?

Catherine Harrison (53:39.651)
Yeah. Well, interesting that you say that one of the other pillars I believe strongly in is critical thinking. Because, right, I mean, I have six, right? And so I think we’ve lost, we don’t teach kids how to think critically. We teach them how to know stuff. We teach them sometimes how to do stuff, but we don’t think them how to think critically, how to balance.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (53:48.093)
Ha

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (54:00.967)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (54:08.655)
curiosity. Self-awareness is another pillar. We don’t teach them how to test whether our intuition or our critical thinking is the right sort of approach. How do we balance both? So I agree we’ve lost whatever we might have had in terms of teaching people to

be less inclined to immediately own something and have an opinion and be like, blah, blah, which is ironic because I’m a very opinionated person, you know, but I really do try even with my opinions to be like, I could be completely full of it. This is where I’m at, but I could be completely full of it. I try to look up and see, but I think we’ve lost that a lot. There’s a great book by Tim Caulfield called The Illusion of Certainty. There’s several…

academics who are kind of speaking about this right now. And that certainly is being demonstrated in the echo chambers of social media and the internet these days, right? Which is people who are like, I know because I know and that’s all you need to know. So that critical thinking is here.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (55:20.379)
Yeah, yeah. Which is such a poor argument. I really do believe that people need to be taught how to think, not what to think. It’s funny because so we have an artist development agency where we do a big combination of marketing, social media, branding, know, a release schedule. We do as much as we can for the artists, but we always tell them that we do it with you. My goal is to not just sign you up.

Get your money, go through the project and get the results but show you along the way so that you’re more empowered when you come out of it to understand the industry, to know who might be ripping you off because that’s not how that works. could do that myself. I know someone that would charge way less for that. You have to learn these things in order to be able to comment on them more. I’ll share something with you that I’ve from this amazing

older German, he was a gay German guy who ran a record shop in North Vancouver and it wasn’t a record shop so much it was this like hole in the wall that had like tons of turntables that he loved to just repair. And I was in there one day and we were just going back and forth on you know the politics of the time.

I was talking about my opinion about something and he stopped me and I was like, know Am I getting kicked out of the store and I’ve shared this anecdote before but I think it’s a wise one and it deserves to go farther. He said don’t have opinions ever again just reframe it as positions because you might completely disagree with Catherine on 99 % of the stuff that she says today, but if you agree a 1 % you just change your position and that will happen your entire life and sometimes it’s

Catherine Harrison (56:48.587)
Thank

Catherine Harrison (56:58.582)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (57:08.463)
Mmm.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (57:11.667)
big change and sometimes it’s a small change but that as humans that as learners is what we need to have in a mindset to be humble and to say you know I know and I feel and I’ve done the research doesn’t mean I don’t have more to learn and grow that position.

Catherine Harrison (57:26.253)
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think, I mean, these are all the little insights that make life interesting, right? Where if you’re open to it and you hear that, and even if you put that through your own little meat grinder and it turns into a slightly different iteration, that’s meaningful to you to just remember, you know, there’s never been nor will there ever be another Christopher Gonta exactly like you. So you’re going to have a specific

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (57:34.096)
Yeah.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (57:52.85)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (57:55.545)
perspective and line of sight based on all of these various factors that lead up to who you are right now. And it’s ridiculous that there’s gonna be other people who believe exactly what you believe in the same way, et cetera, because we all come at these things differently. And I think that’s a really interesting thing. And again, something I struggle with every day because I can be quite opinionated and…

You know, I can be like, yeah, but what about this? Yeah, but what about this way? And I realized the best thing is to just sort of go, huh, yeah, maybe, I don’t know.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (58:34.331)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that the life life best lived is constantly learning, I think. What do you see from your perspective in terms of people who use your services that use your skill set as truly, deeply wanting to learn and better and change versus.

Catherine Harrison (58:41.88)
Yeah.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (58:59.505)
Maybe a corporate bandwagon jumping of holding up appearances of mindset and mental health.

Catherine Harrison (59:05.227)
Yeah. Well, I do think we see a lot of performative behavior and investment to your point around mental health month. I mean, I think that’s great. I think every day or month, you know, now every day is a something day. Every month is a something month. I think all of those causes or, you know, areas of focus are worthy, certainly of our attention. I do think that

It comes back to alignment and values, though I do think, see a lot of leaders and or organizations who invest heavily in performing within a day or a month. And they don’t actually change the way they engage with the human beings in their workplace or their client base. You know, so that in and of itself causes a lot of disengagement with their own employees because they’re kind of like, you’re full of it because you’re saying this, but you’re I, my experience here is this.

I think one thing that I feel really strongly about is I don’t want to just do a thing to check a box. I actually want to do a thing that drives change. Even if it’s a small shift, that’s what I feel is my reason for being.

is not to just be a purveyor of stuff and to sell, let’s call it intellectual widgets, like buy my thing and then I don’t care if you change, I actually care, perhaps inappropriately. And so I feel less.

focused on just sharing content, although I do share content. I share content through research, through my writing, through my speaking. Obviously, I share content. But where I really drive meaningful change is when we contextualize the content and converse about the content and talk about how the insight from this content could be.

Catherine Harrison (01:01:08.213)
activated and integrated into Christopher’s daily life and how Christopher will actually be able to, you know, do slightly different things and how will he measure the impact of that slight change. And that takes a lot more time than just doing the corporate thingamajigger. So do I get hired to do some of the corporate thingamajiggers? Sure I do. Are there a few people there, or sometimes many people, who walk away with an insight? Yes.

But the ones that really get value are the ones that recognize to your point around fitness. It’s not like you go to the gym once a month and then you’re done for the year. It’s like, how do you stay connected to constantly talk about what’s working, what’s not working, what systemic barriers might be preventing actually you trying these concepts. Sometimes the system doesn’t even enable you to try these things.

And so it’s really turning content into context. It’s turning, you know, content into conversation. It is, you know, the other pillar is accountability, which is like, okay, I can do my part and maybe educate or give tools or give coaching. But at the end of the day, the person on the receiving end has to be accountable enough to say, I’m actually willing to move through some discomfort.

to put something in place and to drive meaningful change. And again, it might be a small shift, but that small shift might be really meaningful.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:02:45.051)
Yeah, I think there’s also a problem with people always focusing on an outcome or a desired goal. Living in that future state rather than present. A really quick example of what I’m trying to say is that when I was in university in Toronto, I…

I’ve hit up different schools, but I was at Glendon College for a while, which is the bilingual campus of York University. And I had a professor, philosophy professor named Joseph Gonda, same last name, totally unrelated. First time I’ve ever met, first and only time I’ve met Gonda in my life. I remember him so specifically saying to me once it’s, this is not about philosophizing to get an answer, to prove the other person wrong. It’s not about.

this or that, A, or C, it’s about having conversed in the first place. It’s not the outcome that’s the point, it’s the conversation. And that outcome will come to you as it’s supposed to with whatever lens it is for you, with whatever position it is for you. And I think that is so important to focus on is just talk. Who cares about where it’s going?

Catherine Harrison (01:03:43.362)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (01:03:56.983)
Yeah, that reminds me, and I’m going to screw this up, but it reminds me of another philosophical statement probably attributed to one of the Greeks or the Romans. the purpose of debate is not victory, but progress.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:04:15.215)
Yes, to have debated in the first place.

Catherine Harrison (01:04:18.273)
Right? It’s that I’m not, the debating is not whether Chris wins or Catherine wins. It’s that both of us progress a tiny little bit because the debate happened.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:04:27.387)
Yes. And ironically, that is the metaphor, right, of the gym of the mind. That is what happens when you go do 100 crunches today. You’ve progressed a little bit from yesterday.

Catherine Harrison (01:04:38.191)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:04:40.679)
So here’s a fun one for you. With what you do and going back to your comments about bullshit detection, are there people that have hit you up and you’re like, listen, this doesn’t seem genuine. I don’t want to take on this work.

Catherine Harrison (01:04:57.005)
Yeah, well, yes, and it’s less about this doesn’t seem genuine. I mean, that is usually the case. But here’s a great example. I got an email from a VP. This was a couple of years ago from a VP of a large organization based here in Toronto.

And they said, you know, we’re really interested in exploring this, this notion of the curious leader and how that plays out. And, know, we’re want to be a highly innovative organization. And we were really, they were in a very highly regulated industry. They’re all about Lean Sigma and all these other processes. They really wanted to, to lean into that. I’m like, great. That’s my area of expertise.

So we want to bring you on. we had a conversation. He said, I want you to come in and do the following things. And I said, okay, well, actually the way I work is this because that actually will drive more meaningful change. Well, actually what I want you to do is this. And I said, okay, well, but that’s probably not going to get the change that you’re looking for. Yeah, but that’s what we want. And I was like, okay. So anyways, we had a few other meetings. He wanted me to put together this whole proposal. And after a couple of meetings, I realized this guy doesn’t actually want.

to develop curious leaders. He wants to spend some money that’s on a budget that says leadership development. And he just wants to make it look cool, that it’s this sort of novel way of looking at this. He wants to spend this money with this local consultant expert.

but he’s not interested in listening. It’s kind of like hiring a plumber and the plumber says, actually you need to change this L-valve. And you go, yeah, no, I want you to fix this, but don’t change the L-valve. And the plumber’s like, yeah, but lady, it’s the L-valve that needs to be, yeah, but I don’t want you to change the L-valve. And you’re like, well, who’s the plumber? It became very clear that he did not want to listen to the plumber, right? So I was just like, you know, I wish you the best. I can’t help you out in this. And the best part is he says,

Catherine Harrison (01:06:54.255)
He was kind of pissed off at me. But anyways, then he says, okay, well, great. Can you recommend anyone else? I’m like, no, because like, I’m the one who actually does all this work. so, you know, I think honestly, based on what you’re looking for, you can find, just find anybody. Cause really you’re not looking forward to do any change. Um, so I, becomes very clear in early conversations when I’m asking like, what is it after we do this thing, this work together? What do you want to observe?

What do you want to feel? What kind of outcomes are you looking for? How will you be measuring the impact? Like if they can’t start to at least explore those questions and answers at the beginning, often it becomes kind of icky for me and I’m like, it’s probably not going to be a good match.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:07:41.277)
Good, good for you for not only being honest with the answer but staying true to your values and morals when maybe morals is the wrong word but to your values and conviction with what you’re trying to do at impacting change. I’m sure that’s hard to turn stuff away sometimes but or maybe not.

Catherine Harrison (01:07:58.863)
It is. It is. sometimes, and again, I will say I’m lucky I’m at an age and stage where I have a sense of financial stability, right? So I can do that. To be clear, you know, in earlier times, I’d be like, I don’t really want to do this, but hey, man, I got to put bread on the table. So

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:08:09.629)
you

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:08:17.82)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (01:08:18.287)
I don’t want to be this, I don’t want to in any way represent this moral high ground because I can be just as much of an asshole as anybody else. But I think there are certain factors that are at play that enable me to do that. And then as I’ve gotten older, I also feel even more, I feel even a greater necessity to stay close to my values and to act in a way that is,

that represents integrity to myself. And the times when I feel the worst actually, Chris, is when I know I think I’ve been playing a game I don’t wanna play.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:09:00.017)
Yeah, I totally understand that. It’s funny, like you said something there that’s really important too, is that we try really hard to do right and do well and mental health and go inward and be honest with ourselves and open. Part of that’s accepting the fact that we are humans and to be human is to err, right? The infallibility and whatnot. well so-and-so said this online and he said that and you know, he was a racist and…

Why is it so hard to just say, you know what, I made that comment. You might not know the context, or even with the context, it’s still bad, but I messed up, and I’m freaking sorry, and you know what, I did that, and now I know better. I think that’s.

Catherine Harrison (01:09:41.933)
Yeah. You know what’s funny? That’s one of the things that comes up in every cohort, whether it’s individual or collective cohorts, when I’m doing leadership development around human-centered leadership, is how to drive high performance while creating this healthy high-trust culture. in many, almost every time, they’ll be like, yeah, but how do I do such and such and such and such? And I say, you just tell them. You just say, hey, folks.

I’m really struggling right now. I think we’re doing the right thing, but I’m struggling. And to be honest, I’m exhausted because my dog died and then I had this thing. And it’s not a pity party, but tell them because they’re gonna realize, wait, this person’s a human and I’m a human. That means we can actually be humans here. That’s cool. Now that doesn’t preclude the fact that within the place of work,

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:10:33.351)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (01:10:38.805)
work needs to get done and it needs to be clearly defined and it needs to be unambiguous in terms of how we’re going to manage and recognize and measure and evaluate performance. That has to be there too. But how you learn to do that while also owning, hey, I made a mistake, my bad. The best thing you can do as a leader is the simplest thing is when you make a mistake, just go, my bad, sorry about that.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:11:08.913)
Yeah, I totally agree. I’ve apologized to my team. I don’t have a big team. There’s like half a dozen of us. And I will always be the first to apologize. And you know, it’s funny as soon as you were telling that story, I’ve remembered when I had a little girl last year, she passed away. She lived for about a week. It was extremely difficult. Thank you. I appreciate that. I woke up.

Catherine Harrison (01:11:30.925)
I’m so sorry to hear that.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:11:38.395)
It was on a Sunday, it was actually Father’s Day that it happened and I woke up on Monday. And when you work for yourself, you’re like, you you’re the thing. If you’re not doing it, who’s doing it? And so I woke up and I was like, what the hell do I do? Like I am a hot mess. I need some space and some time. So after deliberating for a split second, I got on my regular Monday call and I just said, listen, this is what happens. I…

broke down and I cried and I was just like a sobbing hot mess in front of everyone. But then I said, I need space, I need time, and I need your help. And what that did is it removed speculation, it removed conspiracy, it removed doubt, it created a bond and it made my team like not just feel bad for me, but hustle hard. And then that empowered me to heal faster, to get back to work faster. I’m getting a little choked up thinking about her, but it’s so important just to be real.

Catherine Harrison (01:12:35.171)
Yeah, yeah, that is a great example and I’m deeply, deeply sorry for your loss. That is unimaginable to me. I think that that really symbolizes so many things that you were willing to step into that.

to share the fact that you mentioned, you know, with the absence of information, there’s a vacuum and people will always fill the vacuum. They’ll fill the vacuum with gossip, with conjecture, with assumptions, et cetera. The easiest way to avoid that is to just.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:13:05.351)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (01:13:12.431)
you know, be as honest and open as you are both comfortable and, you know, legally capable of doing. I work with a lot of senior leaders and they’re like, well, I can’t tell them everything. I said, well, no, you don’t have to tell them everything, but give them enough and give them some context so that they’re not, you know, living in the vacuum and, and that you are, you were in that moment, you know, letting them know, hey,

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:13:29.085)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (01:13:39.649)
I’m a human and you’re all humans and this is how we work around here. And whatever those values are that are listed on your website, they probably all were very felt that day. Because words without actions are meaningless and in fact can often bite us, right? People get really disengaged when, well, that was my experience in pharma, when it’s like, see that list of words over there? You guys are full of it. Like you’re not behaving in any way.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:13:49.361)
Yeah, I…

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:14:06.887)
Yeah, I mean, I’m blessed to have these conversations and so far the majority, if not all of my guests have somehow brought authenticity into the conversation. And I think for them, that means walking the walk and talking the talk. And if you don’t do that, the only person you’re lying to is yourself. And why would you do that?

Catherine Harrison (01:14:27.085)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and, and, and we do it, and I’m sure I do it to myself to a point where I usually burn out. We do it because sometimes, you know, the truth is hard. The truth is complex and complicated, and humans are complex and complicated. And truth is also nebulous, really, like truth. There’s a lot of stories and, and

know, lore that truth, you know, includes. And I think that that’s going back to your whole philosophy degree and your other, you know, gonda guy. You know, this is what makes the human condition of exploration and, you know, philosophy and ethics and art and culture so interesting, because it’s not black and white.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:15:23.005)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (01:15:26.639)
And, you know, I struggle with this again, like pretty regularly. Like, what do I know to be true? And sometimes I’m not even sure that I know those things to be true. You know, I mean, I can get pretty, as you can imagine, I can get pretty like tied up in a like, but even that is interesting. Like I had this, can I take a little sidebar here? Do we have time for a little?

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:15:53.063)
Totally, totally.

Catherine Harrison (01:15:54.831)
I had dinner with a friend the other night and we were talking about the super agers or the folks who now want to be like, you can biohack your way to be like a 300 year old and leveraging all of this stuff. So we were having this conversation and this piece of information came up, probably one of the likely polarizing figures is this DNA doctor.

who talks about the fact that pretty soon we’re just going to be able to reset ourselves. It doesn’t matter what disease you had or how poorly you’ve treated yourself. You’re 82 years old and you’ve got all these things. You reset and you can live 250. So my buddy said, don’t you think that doesn’t that sound like a great idea? I said, well, it depends. goes, what do mean? What is there to depend? I said, like

So then I got into my whole philosophy. And again, it’s not just me, it’s like stuff I’ve listened to and read over the years. part of the meaning of life is that it’s finite. Right? Part of the meaning of life is that it’s finite. If it’s not finite, it’s like, I don’t know. The other thing is, depend, like, is longevity the thing? Is it lifespan or healthspan?

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:16:57.276)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (01:17:11.093)
Is it the quantity of life or the quality of life?” And he says, well, of course, those things would be, you know, you would expect that those things would be. I said, well, but that’s the thing. We weren’t talking about that. You were just saying, if you could live to 250, would you want to do that? And I’m well, it depends. And so we got into this whole thing. said, because you cannot actually pull apart the how and the context from that question. And I think it doesn’t…

serve any of us to be that binary without actually looking at all of the various colours and spices and nuances of a human experience.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:17:39.549)
Thank

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:17:48.049)
Yeah, it’s funny because you brought that up. It’s such an interesting idea and I immediately started to like answer it and then I started to

question my answer with different answers. So my head went to the whole point of like the beauty of life is the impermanence, right? There are all kinds of Japanese concepts around this where it’s like the imperfection is the perfection and you know the my god what’s it called the shattered teacup and you put it back together with the goal or that a moment is fleeting and that to really genuinely be in the moment the present moment because it’ll never be here again.

Catherine Harrison (01:18:17.486)
Yeah.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:18:25.533)
And so I said, yeah, people that are biohacking and trying to seek out eternal life are probably just, it’s probably rooted in fear of death. End of story. But then I also said, yeah, but stay curious, you know, like what if someone was genuinely like, I want to be 300 because I want to continue to explore all these things and help more people. It comes down to balance. I don’t know what the answer is, but that’s not the point. The point is just to talk about it.

Catherine Harrison (01:18:51.627)
Yeah, because really at the end of the day, most of it could be like, it depends. Like this is why, you know, people love to play these games. What’s your favorite this? What’s your favorite that? What would you do? I’m like, it depends. Kind of depends on my mood, depends on the circumstances, depends on who I’m with, you know, it depends. And I think we need to explore, you know, the intersection of leadership and mental health, of workplace dynamics, of all the various stuff in that, in that

arena, which is how do we unpack it? How do we depersonalize enough that we can look down on this and go, interesting, what else might be happening? Interesting, what might be possible if we did it a different way, as opposed to like trying to just come in hard and fast, solve that thing. And that’s the work I really like doing with organizations or with groups is to say, how can we

How can we use this as our own case study? Could we play a little game or we, you know, levitate out of our bodies and look down on this and think like, what one or two small things might we shift to make everybody’s experience here not just more pleasant, but more engaging and more motivating and more impactful and effective and efficient and innovative and productive, all those businessy things. But we often, to your point, you got to get out of yourself before you can kind of get into yourself.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:19:59.325)
Absolutely

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:20:17.425)
Yeah, it’s kind of the whole premise of this podcast of Heart Dealer, of who I am, of what we’re doing here is to have the conversation in the first place, you and me. Then also to individually learn, grow, find new tricks, shift our position. Then also create content because this is our purpose, this is what we feel. Also to inspire others.

to have the same conversations and maybe even to leave others with some of the tools that they could then use in their life. There’s so much that I’m trying to do with this and all of it’s simple. It’s all as simple as just talk.

Catherine Harrison (01:20:56.815)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, which, which again, back to your earlier comment around, hey, how has society changed a lot? People don’t talk a lot. And because, because this, this is not talking. It’s, it’s communicating, but it’s not the same as talking. And we have really lost a lot of nuance, real connection, real, um, the ability to navigate.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:21:04.208)
You

Yeah.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:21:13.031)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (01:21:26.345)
silence and pause and discomfort.

through live conversations. And again, that’s something I feel really strongly about coming back to sort of the research and what I think the music industry needs, what we need to change in terms of optimizing mental health and leadership is actual, like listen to each other, connect in community, come together. Everything is so fragmented and isolated and competitive. And there, we have really lost a sense of community. And I think that that…

is a core gap that needs to be bridged for any meaningful shift towards better mental health.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:22:06.737)
I agree. And there was some sense of irony in that with the music industry, we’re creating sounds which we need to hear and digest and listen to to, you know, inform thought or decision. And it’s almost like we’re ignoring all of that creative portion. And we’re just saying, no, this is how it’s supposed to be.

Really quickly, because I got a couple questions left for you. I just wanted to, because I love dead humor, point out the irony or the hilarity of your plumber references and that it was an L valve. And my whole principle is love and logic. So it was almost like, you know, we were pulling on the L valve right there. I’m not going to say you were flushing it down the toilet or anything like that, but.

Catherine Harrison (01:22:32.879)
Ha!

Catherine Harrison (01:22:49.679)
Well, I thought you were going to say, Catherine, there’s no L-valve in plumbing, to which I would have said, I know, I don’t know anything about that, but I just made one up. It’s probably more of an, I know there’s like a vis-valve, but there’s probably, there’s probably an L. So yes, look at that.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:23:06.013)
Let’s wrap with soundcheck just because I think that that’s obviously the most current project and thing that you’re working on that we should talk about. Two plus years of work, doing a huge questionnaire, all kinds of levels of the industry from artist to top, dispelling the notion that it’s the artist that this is kind of plaguing everyone.

I wanted to understand like, is this the type of thing that can be very easily applied to other industries? Not that I want to take away from music at all. And two, where do you go from here? How do we start to enact change or address some of the issues that you found?

Catherine Harrison (01:23:54.265)
Well, answer your first question, there are elements that I think could be applied to other industries, certainly when it comes to leadership behaviors or workplace behaviors and dynamics that negatively or positively impact human beings who are in the workplace. Those things are kind of universal, right? So.

Leadership behaviors like effective communication, empathy, listening, clarity, those things work in every industry. The poor leadership behaviors like micromanaging, not listening, lack of empathy, blaming and shaming, harassment, those are clearly are bad behaviors in any industry. Things like bullying, racism, sexism, all those things clearly

applicable in every industry. So yes, and in fact, you know, through my work, I have done other research in other industries. There are certain industries that are more amenable to

bad behavior and suboptimal wellbeing, including suboptimal mental health, the music industry is one of them. There’s a lot of financial precarity. There’s a lot of disparate workplaces, right? It’s not just like everyone goes to this one kind of thing. Some people work in an office, some people work independently, some people work in a venue or in a bar or on their tour bus, or there’s just so many different iterations of that. The music industry is also a…

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:25:21.873)
home.

Catherine Harrison (01:25:29.417)
continues to be kind of a Wild West in terms of structure or lack thereof, where a lot of people, you know, enter the music industry as a musician or they’re a friend of somebody and they go, hey, we need someone to do this. And you go, cool, I’ll do that. And then next thing you know, they’re doing it. But we know how much vocational support, real mentorship, capability building, skill building, knowledge building happens. How are infrastructures created to optimize and manage performance?

in a clear way. What kind of human centered leadership development is there? Very little. So there’s, you know, and there’s some systemic barriers in place too.

Culturally, we still have a lot of stigma when it comes to mental health and I would say substance use as well. The music industry is even more so just because of the sort of classic mythology of sex, drugs and rock and roll. know, musicians are all nuts and this is the way it is and you have to be crazy to be creative and none of that is really true. These are narratives that continue to actually create more harmful realities than not and it prevents people from actually putting up their hand and reaching out because they do know that there are real consequences.

So people do lose gigs. They do get dropped from labels. They are in fact shunned when they try to step into some of these conversations. in those ways, in some cases you can apply it to any workplace environment. In some cases, there’s some quite specific things with respect to the music industry. What I’m hoping that will happen, one,

just like this podcast, is that people will read it, they will get curious about what it means, they will share it, they will then talk to each other about it, and they will then go to people’s in power, stakeholders, whether it’s governmental, industrial, organizational, independence, community levels, and say, hey, what should we do about this?

Catherine Harrison (01:27:36.407)
Like what’s one or two things that we could do to shift our experience or to shift the experience of the people around us? Because this is not just, there’s no blueprint here. The blueprint actually must be created by the people in the arena right now.

You know, I obviously I have some recommendations around, you know, I have my report right here, establishing a mental health support framework, co-creating workplace health and safety standards. We don’t actually, there’s no real ombudsman, there’s no real accountability network, you know, to even manage this stuff. Addressing financial precarity, could be policy interventions, could be sustainable business models.

upstream solutions like education, reducing stigma. And hopefully, this research helps catalyze interest and investment in other research to dig even deeper on some of the, know, because this is a very broad foundational look at mental health in the Canadian music industry. But more research is required to dig into the experience of

certain demographics or certain provinces or certain experiences. So that’s what I’m hoping will come of this.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:28:58.023)
That’s amazing. It’s an amazing journey that you’re on and I appreciate so greatly what you’re doing. You said something there that I think is also telling about your values and who you are and what I hope more people will do is similar to me, similar to you, when I started my first website it wasn’t like, here’s my opinion of this album, this is what I think you should think. It was more of a, this is a really cool album.

more people need to know about this. It was about the dissemination of content and information, not of opinion. Form your own opinion. Just check this out. So I agree, we need to get more of this out there through conversation, through research, and it’s not like a black and white, there is no one answer.

Catherine Harrison (01:29:32.75)
Yeah.

Catherine Harrison (01:29:45.281)
It’s funny that you say that Chris, because one of our little campaigns around this when I’ve been speaking about it is we have little stickers and things that say not my opinion, because this isn’t about my opinion. Actually, what I’m doing is I’m collecting and summarizing the voices and experiences and opinions of more than a thousand Canadian music workers. It’s their…

lived experience. is their collective experience that is being brought into light. And this is what I noticed the most about this. In many cases, people say, this doesn’t really happen here anymore. And yet individually, that’s all I hear about. yeah, no, this really happens here. You know, this really happens. I’ll say this. I’ll have a conversation with someone privately and then say, great, do you want to do a little interview or be on a panel? no, no, no, no, I don’t want to. don’t want to. Which is part of the problem is it’s still

So the research is there to bring this into the light, where in many cases people still don’t feel safe doing that.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:30:42.651)
Yeah.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:30:47.035)
Yeah, I agree. think that people unfortunately feel like…

they’re gonna get cancelled or people will think they’re weak or that they’re whatever within their social circles. You have to start with a strong sense of self. I have referenced this before. I’ll try to keep referencing because I think it’s a really powerful metaphor. I was talking earlier in this series last year with Frank Zumo who’s an incredible drummer who’s also on a path of enlightenment and you know he’s all about mindset and mental wellness.

He has toured with some 41. This guy’s done it all. Maybe not all. He’s done a lot. And during our conversation, said, isn’t it funny, it just kind of came to me that the word rock star that we associate with sex, drug, rock and roll that you just said now is actually a rock and a star.

How does one shine the brightest and ascend to high levels of success? If the foundation isn’t rock solid, that is what rockstar is to me. And that’s what we need to as just lay people aspire to, stronger sense of self.

Catherine Harrison (01:31:51.631)
Hmm.

Catherine Harrison (01:31:58.223)
Yeah, I love that. mean, I’m a real word geek too. So anytime people want to unpack what words mean and how they might be, you know, interpreted, utilized, symbolized, metaphorized, I love that. And I think that’s a really, that’s a really cool way of describing something that would probably land in interesting ways with people.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:32:21.295)
Absolutely. So to this point, I’ve got one last question before I start to wrap this up. Actually, you get to wrap this up, but I will segue that. What I want to ask is, again, there’s no one solution, and this isn’t them versus us or anything.

There’s obviously systematic issues or systemic issues and a lot has to change in a lot of different places. But half of the problem is also the self. mean, you live and breathe this. You are in a workplace and toxic this and leadership that. And you said, no, I am removing myself from this. How do we get people to see with these types of surveys that yes, industry wide, there’s an issue. Let’s start to fix the industry. But also here are tools for you.

to better yourself or strengthen your resolve within the industry at the same time.

Catherine Harrison (01:33:14.691)
Yeah, well, that’s basically why I founded the nonprofit Soundcheck Collective just a few months ago, is to do grassroots bottom-up community level upstream solutions. And what that means is, how do we, while the infrastructure is changing or not for the better, how do we provide knowledge?

know how and tools to help individuals in their communities to promote and protect good mental health and to learn how to.

you know, prevent worsening of mental health, to know how to support each other, to know how to access resources. Many resources in Canada are deeply underutilized. People don’t know about them or they don’t know how to access them or they don’t know, you know, they feel stigmatized. They don’t know when and where and how to do it. So we really want to work with communities and with individuals in those communities to bring our knowledge and know-how and expertise and have them

come together like we’re doing to talk about things, to have to learn some things, to practice some tools, to take those tools back into their communities and to start then connecting small communities so that the human beings at the more community level actually begin to feel a greater sense of agency and self-determination and balance and capability.

when it comes to navigating their wellbeing within this system, but also to determining how much agency and decision-making they have around whether they want to participate and if so, how and at what point might they make that decision? I made the decision a long time ago that working in the music, even though, as I said, I didn’t start really being in the music community until my 20s,

Catherine Harrison (01:35:15.183)
I made that I looked around. thought, I don’t think that’s a good life for me. Like I need a little more structure. I definitely need a little more financial security. I actually really like, you know, this and that. And as much as I love music and community and creating it and producing it and arranging it and I love, you know. And so I think back to the identity crisis that we talked about earlier, there’s also.

the, you know, this zeitgeist where if you’re not doing it full time and you’re not like giving it all and being a starving artist, then you’re not a real artist or you’re not a real X. And I think we need to really do away with these very binary and limiting labels and cultivate a greater sense of agency. That being said, if we don’t do it together and if we don’t actually learn how to do that, the

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:35:56.594)
Mm-hmm.

Catherine Harrison (01:36:05.377)
The vortex of algorithmic social media makes us all think that we’re all losers and everyone else is doing great. So, you know, it’s not going to be easy, but I do think we really need to start at the community level and invite people to step in. There will have to be accountability because there could be a whole toolkit right there, but if you don’t pick it up, you know,

So that’s what I’m hoping that will help to drive both sort of top-down infrastructural change and then bottom-up community change.

Chr1stoph3r G0nda (01:36:43.483)
I love that this has been such a riveting conversation. really appreciate your time. I want you to wrap us up by giving us some final words of wisdom, the final thoughts, so to speak. And I’ll tee it up for you because I don’t usually tee it up, but your bio literally started with, thanks for investing your valuable time here. I love that so much because

gratitude and appreciation are massive and I find it ironic that now more than ever I can’t say I haven’t lived for more than 45 years but now more than ever in my lifetime it seems that not only is time the single most precious asset we have period above money gold everything it’s the most squandered and taken for granted so thank you for your time

Catherine Harrison (01:37:38.765)
Yeah.

Well, thank you for your time. Thank you for the invitation. And I really enjoyed this. I do think to wrap that up, I often feel the least grounded when I’ve lost gratitude for even the simple things, you know, like having a warm bed or having a nice hot coffee in the morning or having the opportunity to talk about things that I love to talk about with, you know, a new friend or colleague. So I think…

It’s easy for us in this world to think that gratitude is a very sort of pseudo woo situation, but it is really one of the most practical tactical tools that we all have to just get a little more grounded.