The Darkness: “‘Dreams On Toast’ means full freedom of expression. It’s a statement of us doing what we want, even if it’s the wrong thing.”

From the glam punk rock of “I Hate Myself” to the ‘60s inspired balladry of “Hot On My Tail,” to the hard rock of “Rock And Roll Party Cowboy”, Dreams on Toast, the latest album from Lowestoft hard rockers The Darkness, sees the quartet pushing their creative boundaries once more with a collection of songs that offers much more than what you would expect from a band like this.

In our latest Cover Story, V13 sat down with guitarist Dan Hawkins to talk about the meaning behind the new album title Dreams on Toast, Taylor Swift, the chaos of their early days, and how they hope, one day, to be the torchbearers for classic rock…

Let’s start with the meaning behind the album title, Dreams on Toast…

Dan Hawkins: “That title has been knocking around for years, like literally 10 years. It was, for me personally, like a bad smell that just wouldn’t go away.The only reason it hasn’t been an album title already is because I’ve been digging my heels in. Then during the production of this album it was like what are we going to call it? Obviously the Dreams On Toast album title comes up yet again.

It just happened to be at a bargaining point where I was ‘Okay. If you do this for me, if you record this song, the way that I want to do it and just fucking don’t steer from my vision for it, then, yes, fine, no fucking problem. Just call it what you want…’”

It’s done now. It’s out of the way, isn’t it?

“In a way, that was part of my motivation as well. Just to end that thing but the guys just love it. They love it because… I can see why they like it, it’s just ridiculous really. Also it doesn’t mean anything, but also it can mean a lot of different things. To me, it means I lost an argument.”

No, you’ve been the better man…

“Exactly. Well, not really. Yeah, I got my own way with the song I was producing at the time, but, I guess for me, if it means anything for me, it means I’ve allowed for full freedom of expression on this record, including the title. It’s a statement of us doing what we want to do, even if it’s the wrong thing.”

Looking at some of the songs on the album, like “I Hate Myself” and “Battle For Gadgetland,” how do they fit in with that title, Dreams On Toast, or do they not?

“I think that’s the contrary, verging on self-sabotage that The Darkness have always done. The only album title I think that was ever really actually appropriate, was the album title for the first album, Permission to Land, and that just rang true because we spent 11 slogging it out for no success in London, then finally we made a breakthrough off our own backs and we were given permission to land. There’s no such story with this one. It’s just us pissing about.”

“It was, for me personally, like a bad smell that just wouldn’t go away.The only reason it hasn’t been an album title already is because I’ve been digging my heels in.”

You’ve always, for many people that know you, synonymous with big, brash rock anthems. The creative freedom you’ve had on this record, for fans of the band, which of the tracks do you think stand out on the new record as being slightly different?

“There’s some… we would write a song, and it’s one of those albums where… We tend to have a cycle in The Darkness, one of our fans pointed this out and then we realized that actually that makes sense. We’ll do an album like this one where it’s all about the songs and we enter the studio with a song written on an acoustic guitar, and that’s it. We go in and we figure it all out in the studio.

These are the albums that I produce where I’m on the verge of a mental breakdown at the end because it’s so much work. There’s been no rehearsal. The rehearsal’s happening, but we’re all keen to get the take at the same time and then you’re exploring ideas in the studio, building things up massively and then breaking them down because it didn’t work and so on and so forth until you’ve carved out something that’s very much just like a studio album.

Then what happens is the next album is pretty much just plug in and go for it because we’re so sick of the time. We’re talking about 10 or 11 months of solid work that this album represents, which seems, with the bonus tracks, the solo additions, et cetera, I think there’s about 15 songs we did in the input. It’s a very long and drawn out process.”

The writing process for The Darkness, it feels like, even though there’s a cycle, it’s almost different for each album. Is that the case?

“Definitely. Each album is a reaction to how we felt making the last one. I already can hear the sound of the next record in my head in a way.”

You slogged away on the circuit for 11 years before you got your break. What was the big dream back at the beginning for you, Justin and Frankie as well?

“All I’ve ever wanted to do is have a living in music. Either as a musician or a producer. I guess maybe for years that the aim was to really be at a level where I was headlining the Waterfront in Norwich. That’s where I used to go and see bands when I was younger and I saw some amazing bands there so that’s the benchmark for it.

The thing is, when we started The Darkness, we knew straight away that what we were going for was a very big sound. We were pulling together the influences, which were your AC/DC, Queen, sort of Led Zeppelin bands. So it was a weird one because like, although I wouldn’t say we’re unambitious but just to make a living from music would have been great. When the band started, the objective, right from the word go, was to headline Wembley Arena.

That was when we knew we’d achieved our potential for the songs that we were writing and the sound that we were trying to create. There’s this weird thing that we knew what we were gunning for but didn’t really care whether we got there or not really but we knew that is where we should be really.”

V13 – MagazineCover – Issue82 – TheDarkness

Growing up you said all you ever wanted to do was work in music whether that was as a musician or a producer or whatever. Out of the two of you who posed more in front of the mirror as a rock star?

“I think we both know the answer to that one, don’t we?”

Yes but I wanted to hear it…

“Justin’s a real character, always has been. Even at school he was legendary for the things that he would wear, and the pranks that he would pull, and the bands that he was in. At one point he was in a band where he had a 25ft paper mache cock that came out of his guitar that went all the way around the stage and then came back and was poking out into the audience.”

I don’t know how I can follow that…

“I think one of those gigs in that band that he was in, one of the members of the band or someone was basically employed simply to fire ping pong balls at him the entire time to put him off his stride when he was doing lead guitar solos. So this is what we’re dealing with as far as an extrovert and creative powerhouse, so it’s definitely him. I wanted to be a sound engineer and I wanted to leave school and go to the SAE, which is the School of Audio Engineering but my parents didn’t have any money and it was ten grand a year which was a lot back then so this wasn’t an option.

I also played guitar, bass and was obsessed with how songs were recorded. So I moved to London just to try and find a band as soon as I couldn’t do what I intended. I was very much a bass player and was a drummer originally, but I moved to London as a bass player and would have just been happy just to sit at the back.

I felt like, even at 17 years old, when I left to move to London from Lowestoft, I honestly felt like I could step into U2 or some big band. I felt pretty confident at my instrument but not ready. It took me years to get over stage fright as I was quite shy really.”

On the subject of Permission To Land. I think we can pinpoint the time in your career when your profile skyrocketed. Were you prepared for that?

“Yes and no. I’d been working on and off for a music publisher and I also worked for a label before that so I was keeping myself alive by doing jobs in the industry. Also, during that period, I ended up doing a lot of session guitar work. My first tour was a couple of years before The Darkness formed, and it was supporting Richard Thompson on a tour of his.

“I think one of those gigs in that band that he was in, someone was basically employed simply to fire ping pong balls at him the entire time to put him off his stride…”

It took in places like the Royal Festival Hall and stuff like that so I had a bit of experience about the industry and playing live and how album sessions worked. I’d worked with various producers including Steve Bush who did the Stereophonics stuff.

I was in and out of studios all the time so I was, without sounding a bit pretentious or up my own arse, having just watched the documentary for Led Zeppelin, Jimmy Page’s story really rang true. That beginning origin story is very similar to mine, but without playing on all the massive hits. So I was ready and organized and knew what we needed to do basically.”

Travelling to now then in the theme of the rock and roll party cowboys video which shows the flamboyant party lifestyles have not left the band. What’s life like now on the road especially as you mentioned wives, kids…

“Back in the day, It was just complete and utter carnage. We had a wardrobe assistant and one of his jobs was to deploy two ice cubes directly into the eyes, closed I might say, about half an hour before the gig to try and jumpstart our being able to actually play the gig because we were so fucking hungover.

I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone, but we’ll say it works. Maybe it’s the fight or flight thing? It sort of makes your brain send emergency signals. It was just a cycle of that. You basically play where you are just about able to stumble on stage from the night before, do the gig and then you come off like and the whole thing would start again.”

From a band point of view, how hard was it to maintain that persona all of the time?

“Being realistic, we didn’t manage to maintain it. I think it affected everything and in a bad way in the end. There were a lot of drugs knocking about as well and, let’s just put it this way, we’re not the sort of band that would actually proudly document the stuff that was going on in a Motley Crue kind of way because that’s just the type of people that we are but I can tell you it was it was pretty ferocious and I don’t think anyone can really cope with that for that period of time. This is why, when the band reformed in 2010, my brother was sober at that point and he still is.”

Do you think the industry has changed?

“Absolutely. Here’s the thing at the lower level. In the bands that are up and coming and artists in the pop scene and rock, there’s more at stake in a way because there’s less money for them in the industry. With streaming and stuff, all that money is generated for the big wigs to get richer and the big artists to take the huge shares but where the fuck’s the money and support for the younger bands? It’s not there. You’re expected to get there on your own with no financial support. It’s right on the line for everyone. It’s just the way streaming has fucked everything…”

The Darkness ‘Dreams On Toast’ album artwork

I suppose you adapt and try to find new ways?

“Exactly but I do feel that no-one was really interested in us or wanted to take a chance on us. We had to release things ourselves in the end to make any traction. We certainly weren’t given that much thought but there were a lot of bands back when we started. All we wanted was what other bands had, which were development deals where they’d pay for touring and keep the band alive.

Put an album out, keep the band alive then the second album they’d put out and keep the band alive and then, by the third album, sometimes they’d have a hit and it was all worth it. When you have an album… when you were selling physical products everyone was making loads of money so it was okay. It was fun to invest that money in bands and take a punt whereas that’s not there anymore.

It’s like bands are expected to have fucking x millions of fucking followers here and there. I thought that Chappel Roan thing, what they said at the Grammy’s, was fucking great actually. The people running the music industry aren’t even into music anymore. They’re just businessmen who own the streaming services so where the labels went wrong they could have protected their artists rather than investing in streaming.

They should have become partners and shareholders in things like Spotify. They sort of betrayed everyone really. It’s hard for bands now and I think that’s a real shame.”

“I do feel that no-one was really interested in us or wanted to take a chance on us. We had to release things ourselves in the end to make any traction…”

Going back to the record there’s almost an expectation from a band like The Darkness to write these big flamboyant rock anthems. How challenging is it to keep sounding fresh for you after eight albums?

“That’s easy for us, the creative side of it. I wrote hundreds of songs for this album. One of the things we decided we really need to do this time was leave a load of stuff on the cutting room floor and we spent ages because we had the Permission To Land anniversary release the year before, which enabled us to tour and therefore survive without having to release a new album. That was actually really important for us because we managed to really spend a year extra longer than we would normally spend writing which was absolutely fantastic for us.

Honestly, I don’t think about the audience when we’re writing. We don’t think about anything other than what we’re doing at the time when we’re writing and it’s endless. There’s so many things you can do… so many directions we can go in. We never like to say “Oh, that doesn’t sound like The Darkness.” We can’t do that. When you are like that and everyone’s open-minded like we are, it means you can…

On this album, we ended up with two country songs we didn’t intend to write, whose idea was that? Well, it just happens. You’ll just be playing something because you feel a certain way one day and then next thing, he’ll come up with some lyrics and and he’ll say “You remember that country thing you were playing. I think I’ve got something for you…” Within 20 minutes you’ve put an acoustic demo down and it’s great.

You move on and next thing you’re playing thrash, a song that sounds like Anthrax. It’s basically the best songs survive in the end and that’s what dictates what’s on the album. It’s that simple. At one point we were playing something in here that was fucking Creed… Who wants to hear that? The next album could be fully Creed.”

You did a couple of smaller shows in London before Christmas. You talked about growing up and wanted to play Wembley Arena and your ambition to headline Norwich Waterfront… Where’s your preference in terms of playing huge arenas or playing the sweaty club shows?

“Personally, the bigger, the better for me just because… I sound ridiculous… but the nature of my guitar sound means it, by default, has to be really loud because it takes volume to move a speaker the way it needs to be moved and distorted.

I’m a Marshall player, so the key to a good-sounding Marshall sound is it has to be loud. It’s not because your flares are flapping and you’re like “Look at me, I’m really loud.” It’s got nothing to do with that. It’s a fucking nightmare but I know that the best sound is when the speakers are breaking up and the amps, the power amp is compressing, so it has to be fucking loud.

The only way I can get my guitar sounds to sound the way I like it is when I can do that is in a bigger place.”

“There’s so many things you can do… so many directions we can go in. We never like to say “Oh, that doesn’t sound like The Darkness.””

Recently the profile of the band has gone through the roof as I believe Taylor Swift has been singing your songs. How did you find out about that and it’s good timing coming out isn’t it?

“There’s quite a few things that have, for whatever reason, put us in the spotlight. A bit like Justin’s YouTube channel has. There’s a lot of people on his YouTube channel that didn’t even realize he’s in a band so it’s quite popular in its own right and very successful.

There was the Taylor Hawkins tribute thing that Justin and Rufus did, which almost gave us this seal of approval that we didn’t really want or care for from the classic rock fraternity that always thought we were a bit of a joke and it seems like we’ve just been given a stamp of approval.

Then the Taylor thing where it’s introducing the band to another generation. Do you know what I mean? So there’s all these things and they add up. I’m not going to use the word zeitgeist because zeitgeist is more like, I think, for bands that are new really, but you can’t really control that. You put your best foot forward and try to enjoy what you’re doing and be true to who you are and what you are and the rest is down to other people.

The Taylor Swift thing was cool, but it also didn’t really surprise me because we know Taylor’s a bit of a fan because we’re mates with Ed Sheeran, who’s really good mates with her. I think she even did like an advert for Apple Music at some point dancing to “I Believe in a Thing Called Love.”

It’s quite a big karaoke classic as well which is a cross generational thing, and I think people try to bite off that song because it’s so difficult to sing, and anyone with falsetto thinks they can nail it, and they’re all wrong at the moment.”

The new album is coming out, there’s more touring coming up, Taylor Swift’s raising your profile again, what about the next chapter of The Darkness?,What is your dream going forward? What would be success for this album?

“I am just really looking forward to this tour. The tour’s pretty much entirely sold out. I think there’s a few tickets left for Wembley, but with a tailwind that will be sold out as well. It’s just amazing to be where we’re at really. We’ve just done what we’ve done and stuck with what we’ve stuck with. We don’t try to second guess what can make this band bigger. We just rock out and then see what happens.

There’s a few arenas on this run and that’s something we’ve worked very hard towards since we got back together in 2010. I always say that, if we’re the last men standing, then everything will be fine because there’s a lot of our peers playing the same style of music. They’re quite old where we’re quite young I think in some ways for the style of music that we play.

I think we’re actually quite young so if we keep fit and healthy, which we all do religiously, there’s no reason why we can’t just keep building and be the ones carrying the torch for classic rock in 10, 15 years time.”