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WHITE REAPER Discusses ‘You Deserve Love,’ Shoelaces, Making Hawk Albums, and ‘Breaking Bad’ [w/ Audio]

Just after performing at Riot Fest in Chicago, every member of White Reaper took some time to speak with us about their new Elektra album You Deserve Love, making Tony Hawk albums, working for the man, and Breaking Bad.



White Reaper has indeed done it again, releasing their third studio full-length You Deserve Love on October 18th, their first full-length on Elektra (pre-order and save options here). There are three advance single available for streaming now; “1F,” “Might Be Right,” and “Real Long Time.” All of these songs hint at new material that is more polished than what we have heard before – yet no less seductive.

Tony Esposito (guitar and vocals), Nick Wilkerson (drums), Hunter Thompson (guitar), Ryan Hater (keyboards), and Sam Wilkerson (bass) make some of the best jams in this current musical climate. Need some proof? Some of the videos for the new tracks are included below for streaming. Toronto people, make sure to circle the Horseshoe show on November 8th. And don’t sit on the fence; this show is close to sold out.

Just after performing at Riot Fest in Chicago, Tony Esposito, Nick Wilkerson, Hunter Thompson, and Ryan Hater took some time to talk with PureGrainAudio about the new album. It wound up being more of a roundtable of laughter, but that is part and parcel for White Reaper, one of the funniest bands in the world. The audio is included here via SoundCloud (complete with an Against Me! soundtrack in the background) if you’d like to listen along. The band is currently on the road and will be through to Christmas.

So is today the official start of the tour for your new album then? Is that how that’s going to go?

Hunter Thompson: “Maybe. Kinda.”
Tony Esposito: “Actually that’s another couple of weeks, but yeah.”
Nick Wilkerson: “In a way.”
Tony Esposito: “It’s the first time our whole team is assembled and getting ready to roll into the next couple of months, yeah.”

How many new tracks did you play today?

Thompson: “Three.”

“1F” is White Reaper’s latest music video off of You Deserve Love:

And were they the three singles that are released already?

All: “Yeah.”
Thompson: “But we’ve got more in the tank.”

Is this your first Riot Fest?

Esposito: “Yes.”

And? What did you think?

Wilkerson: This lineup today is just blowing my mind. No matter where you go in the whole festival, it’s just like going back in time or something. It’s just incredible. The line-up today is amazing.”
Esposito: “Yeah. A-plus.”

So does your new album mean that you are no longer the world’s best American band?

Esposito: “Hmm. That’s a good question.”
Wilkerson: “No, we still are.”
Thompson: “But now it’s even better.”

A month from now, every journalist is going to try and figure out how to compare this album to your last two albums. Why don’t you compare how they sound, and what you think is different about them?

Esposito: “Have you heard it?”

I’ve only heard the three singles.

Esposito: “Ok. Yeah, it’s definitely way different.”
Wilkerson: “We try to make every album different. Like how all the Tony Hawk games are different? And this album is a whole new introduction of different levels that you can skate in.”
Esposito: “The older records, they are a little bit lower-fi if you want to call it that. This one is a little bit higher-fi. We record everything pretty much live. But just with better sounds. I think that the engineers that we worked with were really great, and the producer that we worked with was really great. He made it really easy for us to just plug-in and get the sound that we wanted. In terms of the record, and the flow of it, I think it’s really eclectic. Like our most eclectic record. It’s got a lot of genre-hopping if you want to call it that. It’s not just one type of song on the new record.”

White Reaper at Riot Fest (Chicago, Illinois) on September 15, 2019, by Mike Bax:

White Reaper at Riot Fest (Chicago, Illinois) on September 15, 2019

Who engineered and produced this album?

Esposito:Jay Joyce produced it. And his engineer…”
Thompson:Jason Hall.”

And? Did you like them? What do you think they brought to the White Reaper combo?

Esposito: “A chill and relaxed atmosphere that made us feel at ease.”
Thompson: “Yeah. I think Jay did a really good job of convincing us not to obsess over our parts. And not go over the same parts with a fine-tooth comb every time. We kind of got these raw takes and he really encouraged us, forced us, to stick with them.”
Wilkerson: “And we were kind of freaking out during it, but it turns out he’s right. Don’t obsess over it, because it will just be worse, probably.”
Thompson: “Also, he had a lot of nice and very expensive equipment in a beautiful studio.”

Do you feel like any of the songs that you worked on in the studio turned out differently than how you demoed them?

Thompson: “Yeah.”
Wilkerson: “Just naturally, probably all of them.”
Esposito: “I think ‘Might Be Right’ came a long way.”
Thompson: “It was like one whole thing when we took it in, and it became a whole another thing by the time we left. That was the biggest transformation, probably, of the demos. Honestly, I think we stayed in a lot of instances pretty close to the demos.”
Wilkerson: “We sped all the songs up. Every single one of them.”
Esposito: “That’s for sure. Yeah. Every song was faster.”

I like how you described your old sound as lo-fi. I feel like these three singles that I’ve heard have a polish on them that hints at bigger production and are more ambitious.

Hater: “I think it’s really just the guys and the gear that they had. I think they have these things dialed-in and know what they like. Their gear is really cool and straight forward. If you want a ‘65 Bassman, the classic amp sound, you’ve got that. If you want a cool guitar, you’ve got that. You could plug right into that, and it sounds good.”
Wilkerson: “They had assistants, Jimmy and Chris, who would take pictures of everything and make sure everything was archived in case you wanted to go back to that sound or something like that.”
Esposito: “It was pro-shit. Pro-level shit.”

“Might Be Right” is also one of the other singles that have been released off of You Deserve Love:

So, my ultra-clear vinyl is ordered. I’m drinking the Kool-Aid.

Wilkerson: “That’s the one I would have got.”

I wanted the shoelaces. I’ve gotta say, but you had to buy the whole enchilada to get the shoelaces.

Hater: “What? Really?”
Wilkerson: “Crazy.”
Esposito: “We could probably bring some shoelaces to Toronto.”
Thompson: “We can get you some shoelaces.”

Whose idea was the shoelaces?

Thompson: “Our manager Sarah.”
Hater: “And we were like, ‘That’s a pretty good idea!’”
Thompson: “I like it a lot. I’m going to turn them into a lanyard and wear it around my neck.”
Wilkerson: “Sometimes we’re not good at stuff like this. So she has a great perspective on it for us.”

Are you yourselves vinyl aficionados? Do you like the vinyl?

Thompson: “We like vinyl.”
Esposito: “I don’t know that I’m an aficionado, in any field, but…”
Wilkerson: “I was saying this earlier, I usually just buy records that are my ‘best-of’ collection.”
Thompson: “If I had a little more disposable income, I think I could get into it. If I had a house, a record player, and some money, fuck yeah, I’m an aficionado.”

If you had a house, you couldn’t afford the record player.

Thompson: “That’s probably true.”
Esposito: “Yeah.”

The record player is kind of intuitive of the bachelor life, right?

Thompson: “My records are in storage right now. But I’ve got some good ones that I copped off some people. I had this guy that was my dad’s friend, and when I bought a record player at a garage sale, he gave me all of his dad’s records just to try playing them on. And he just never got them back. So I’m just stuck with all of these incredible records. That I probably should return, but…”

White Reaper’s third studio album You Deserve Love will be released on October 18th via Elektra Records:

So that’s perfect, really.

Thompson: “Yeah, it really is. Some good stuff. Walt Chambers. His name’s on all of the record sleeves. A shout out to Walt.”

Now he’s going to want them back!

Thompson: “I know.”
Hater: “He’s going to hear this.”
Thompson: “Yeah, oh well.”

The last time you went through Toronto, you came through with The Struts. Was that a lengthy tour for you?

Esposito: “It was. It’s actually the longest tour we’ve ever done.”

And how was it? Did you enjoy touring with them? Are they cool guys?

Esposito: “They are one of the nicest bands that we have been on the road with. They have become really close friends of ours. They are so sweet.”
Thompson: “They are great guys. I think (at the time) we were really itching to get at a headlining run, but it really fun to go out with those guys and see what they are doing and the show that they are putting on.”
Esposito: “We learned a lot about showmanship. They are one of the most dedicated bands that I’ve ever met.”
Wilkerson: “Hell of a show.”
Esposito: “A hell of a show.”
Wilkerson: “Their singer Luke is a true showman. And the rest of the band.”

He’s got some pretty wild fashion sense too.

Wilkerson: “Yeah. One night Hunter here went on stage to play a guitar solo, and he wanted to wear his hat. But that was a no-go.”
Hater: “Hunter did get to wear one of the shirts.”
Thompson: “I wore Jed, The Struts’ bassman’s vest. And I did not wear a shirt underneath it. It was a good one.”
Wilkerson: “Now I want to make it clear here that they have resigned the hat. So there is no more hat in The Strut’s show. As of now.”
Thompson: “So it’s kind of like, maybe they should have let me wear it, you know?”

You’ve got one of the coolest names. Hunter Thomson is a fucking awesome writer.

Thompson: “On the website, my parents didn’t know what was happening.”

“Real Long Time” was the second single and music video released off of You Deserve Love:

He did a little dope though.

Thompson: “Well, don’t we all?” (laughter)

Are you going to stick around today and see some music, or are you staying in the press area?

Thompson: “I’d really like to see The B-52s. And I’d like to see Taking Back Sunday. There’s Ween.”
Esposito: “I was just watching Against Me!
Thompson: “Against Me! I wish we had been here yesterday to see Bloc Party, but…”

Bloc Party was pretty cool.

Thompson: “Did you see them?”

Yeah, I did. I photographed Slayer, and then I ran over and photographed Bloc Party.

Thompson: “That’s a good back-to-back.”

That’s a good combo of music, really. Only at Riot Fest, right?

Thompson: “Yeah, for real, dude.”

Where did you record the new album? Did you stay in Kentucky and record it?

Thompson: “Nashville.”
Wilkerson: “In January.”

The land of music.

Wilkerson: “The whole month of January.”
Esposito: “I think that’s what they call it, yeah.”
Hater: “Music city, or some shit like that.”
Thompson: “Overpriced taco city, or some shit like that.”
Esposito: “Taco city.” (laughs)
Wilkerson: “We drank a lot of wine and watched a lot of Survivor.”

Watch the music video for “Judy French” from the band’s 2017 album The World’s Best American Band:

So, any backup plan? If White Reaper didn’t work out, did any of you have something to fall back on?

Esposito: “Maybe, like, prison.”
Thompson: “Definitely that.”

Eh. It’s three squares a day.

Wilkerson: “Definitely nothing besides the service industry. Hunter here has had a pretty interesting past, career-wise.”
Thompson: “I’ve got a degree in business. I could go to work for the man. But I don’t think I’m eligible, after the things I’ve said all over the United States of America.”

The man will always take you, and will always work you.

Thompson: “Maybe they will, but I pray to God that’s not the case.
Hater: “The man forgives.”

That sounds like a Coen Brothers movie right there.

Thompson: “It does. The man forgives.” (laughs)

The video you did for “1F” looked like it was a lot of fun to shoot. Was that a single day, or did you have to do that over multiple days?

Esposito: “That was a single day.”
Thompson: “It was a lot of fun though.”
Wilkerson: “It was a single day, and the director, Mason, made it super easy and fun for all of us and we just all got along super well. We shot it in LA, and we rented this badass old (to the band); what was it?”
Esposito: “It was a Mustang. It was a ‘65 Mustang.”
Wilkerson: “Yeah. Rented it; Mounted a camera to it; It was really fun. We got to drive it around. It was pretty scary to drive.”

Was there a concept to it? Or did you just say we want to play in a garage and roll some fruit on the ground?

Thompson: “That’s pretty much exactly what we said, right there.”
Hater: “We just wanted there to be a car and strobe effect. That is literally all that was said.”
Wilkerson: “The song, to put it simply, is about cars. In a way.”

The World’s Best American Band album, the band’s second, was released through Polyvinyl on April 7, 2017.

So why the fruit? Why was the fruit rolling on the ground?

Esposito: “Well that was Mason’s idea. I like it, though. I like fruit. And we all like fruit.”
Thompson: “I said this to my mom, it’s green-light lime, and yellow-light lemon and red-light apple. Beautiful.”
Hater: “I didn’t even know that.”
Wilkerson: “That’s the colour element.”

Will you drop a fourth single from the new album before it gets released?

Esposito: “I don’t even think we know the answer to that.”
Thompson: “We actually don’t know. We talked about it.”

Three seems kind of excessive, but that’s the norm now.

Esposito: “You got it. You’ve really got to wring out all of the attention that you can these days.”
Thompson: “I guess I didn’t realize that it comes out in less than a month.”
Hater: “It’s coming out soon. While we are on tour, it will come out. And, I don’t know, there’s one song, and it’s the title track off the new record, and it’s the last song on the record. I would love for that to get a little highlight.”
Esposito: “Yeah me too.”
strong>Thompson: “I would love that too.”

Is it different from the rest of the album? I mean, it’s got a kind of striking title.

Wilkerson: “It’s a great ending.”
Thompson: “It’s a great ending.”

Everybody does deserve love.

Thompson: “It’s definitely a White Reaper song. You would recognize it as such. But I think there’s a lot of; I don’t know…”
Esposito: “There are other songs that are more out of left field than this one.”
Esposito: “Yeah that’s probably right.”
Wilkerson: “I think that we will probably have some more previews. Maybe not track releases, but definitely some more previews and some looks into the album.”
Hater: “Some secret peeks.”

From their 2015 debut record White Reaper Does It Again, watch the music video for the early Reaper track “Make Me Wanna Die:”

But you have not filmed a fourth video.

Esposito: “No.”

They would have to jam that in there if they were going to.

Esposito: “I hope we won’t have to.”
Wilkerson: “I don’t think that’s going to happen.”
Esposito: “The last video came together really quickly though. There wasn’t a whole lot of planning.”
Hater: “In weeks.”
Esposito: “We just decided that we were going to be in LA and Mason was going to be in LA and we did it all in a matter of eight hours. So never say never. It’s not impossible.”

That sounds dubious.

Thompson: “It is.”

Do you ever get to watch your videos on the big screen? It feels like it’s all on small screens now.

Thompson: “I think I’ve only ever watched them on my iPhone.”
Esposito: “What do you mean by big screen?”

A tablet? Your iPad? I don’t know. A television?

Wilkerson: “If I was at my grandma’s house, she would put them on.”
Hater: “I saw a cute video of my mom with my niece and my nephew dancing around the living room to ‘1F’ the other day on the big screen. And it was heartwarming.”
Thompson: “Yeah, the only time I ever see it on a TV is when I’m at a family function. And they are like, ‘Put it on the TV!’”

Pop culture; Did you guys watch Game of Thrones?

All: “Yes.”

Were you happy with the ending?

Hater: “I was.”
Esposito: “I’m fine with it.”
Thompson: “I’m not going to knock it. What can you do?”
Esposito: “What would you have done?”

I actually would have had the Baratheon bastard become the king. Full circle.

Thompson: “I would have liked this to happen. This was Ryan’s theory to me; the White Walkers should have killed everyone except for the new first men. Which would have been like ten people. And they would have started the new kingdom.”
Hater: “A restart.”
Thompson: “Restart. An Ice-age basically. An Ice-age allegory.”
Wilkerson: “Someone has told me not to watch it. I haven’t started it. Well, maybe I watched the first episode.”

Also from White Reaper Does It Again, check out the music video for “Pills:”

You could be the wisest one amongst us.

Wilkerson: “Someone told me to not watch any of it, because of how bad the ending was.”
Hater: “That’s over the top.”

People hated the end of The Sopranos. I’d argue that it’s one of the best endings…

All: “Sshhhh. We are all watching it right now.”

You’ll love it.

Wilkerson: “I know the ending of The Sopranos, but I am still kind of watching it when I can.”
Hater: “I do not know it, and I’ve watched ten episodes in two days. These last two days.”

I think people just don’t want their shows to end.

Hater: “That’s the problem.”
Esposito: “No one can make an ending that’s going to make everyone happy.”
Thompson: “It’s like getting broken up with. You’re like, ‘fuck you! I didn’t even like you.’”
Esposito: “It’s over? Pfff.”
Wilkerson: “This is a pretty cliche show, but Breaking Bad, I fucking loved all of it, man.”

It’s the best show ever.

Thompson: “That’s a great ending.”
Wilkerson: “The ending was great.”
Hater: “That’s a great ending, but there’s a lot of boring shit in Breaking Bad.”
Wilkerson: “I wasn’t bored through Breaking Bad.”
Hater: “I was bored for like three whole seasons.”

You’re talking about the Fly episode.

Hater: “That one was interesting. But that whole season was a stinker.”


The Stone Eye Singer and Guitarist Stephen Burdick Discusses His Band

The Stone Eye singer and guitarist Stephen Burdick discusses the band and their new album ‘Nothing Shall & By Any Means.’



The Stone Eye, photo courtesy of The Stone Eye
The Stone Eye, photo courtesy of The Stone Eye

With a commendable work ethic and a certain lightheartedness, The Stone Eye has found its way to some impressive success. This year marks the tenth anniversary since the talented duo of drummer Jeremiah Bertin and singer-songwriter Stephen Burdick joined forces in their hometown of Philadelphia. Their approach to alternative rock is original and innovative. But there is also a satirical side to the band where they make sure not to take things too seriously. It’s reminiscent of the sound and general approach of Queens of the Stone Age, a band that can rock out but intermixes it with a certain level of weirdness.

The Stone Eye released their latest EP, Nothing Shall & By Any Means, last month via Electric Talon Records. In only four songs, they can deliver a compelling and diverse musical experience. The hooks are infectious, and the riffs of the powerhouse variety. It combines stoner and progressive rock with a certain vintage sludge, fuzzed-out sound reminiscent of the early ’90s. Bertin and Burdick approach their songwriting with a broad-minded approach. They are out to push musical boundaries and carry the torch of alternative rock forward, presenting classic influences to a new generation.

Today, we are joined by Stephen Burdick to discuss The Stone Eye, songwriting, being an independent artist, and more.

How would you describe your music?

Stephen Burdick: “I would describe The Stone Eye’s music as something that slides somewhere in the alternative rock realm of music. I grew up a massive grunge fan. When I first got into composing music, Alice in Chains were my demigods of how to do things. So naturally, we will always have that influence lingering. As we’ve all grown as musicians and individuals, our tastes have evolved and we are always trying to fit new influences in. So, anything from jazz fusion to electronic elements tend to find their way into our music. But at the heart of it, I would describe the music as alternative rock.”

What do you like most about playing music?

“What I like most about playing music is the emotional return, elated or depressive, that it provides when you stumble across something that makes your ears perk up, whether it be a song you listen to that blows you away, a riff you write, a great gig that you’re playing and you’re like ‘damn we are on fire,’ etc. Art in general, whether it be film, music, photography, etc, has a way of moving me, be it in a positive or negative way, that quite literally nothing else has and for that, I am very grateful.”

What’s the most dangerous thing that’s ever happened at one of your shows?

“The most dangerous thing that has ever happened to me at one of our gigs was totally my fault for being an egg-head. Essentially, we were having issues with one of our amps. The standby switch was faulty, and the amp was stuck in standby. I was trying to find a way to override the standby. And in all of my infinite wisdom, I kept the amp plugged in and powered on whilst I was poking around in the thing. Sure enough… zap. Receiving 250 volts or whatever is not fun, but thankfully, I was ok and the show went on without a hitch. I did, however, give up on the amp for the night and brought it to a repairman in Vegas a few days after the show. Trained professionals exist for a reason!”

Politics and Music. Yay, nay or what the hay?

“My answer is what the hay. I mean, I personally try to keep any political affiliation at bay when composing music. But music is all about what inspires you, right? So if you’re politically charged and are inspired by the current events of whatever’s going on… have at it! Sure, you may alienate a few people, but art has always been at the forefront of social discourse.

“My personal stance on composing my own politically charged pieces is… I’m not an expert on anything political, and there are a lot more informed people than myself out there. Hell, you are probably more informed than I am. So I tend to have the philosophy of letting the more-informed have the brighter spotlight.”

The Stone Eye “Nothing Shall’ & “By Any Means” single artwork

The Stone Eye “Nothing Shall’ & “By Any Means” single artwork

When you write, do you do so with the live setting in mind? Or do you write a song just for the song’s sake?

“So this is a tricky one as I tend to do both, or at least try to before my ambitions give in. I always have this, ‘ok we’re good, this is the song’ mentality going into the studio. Meaning, that what we play and sing in the rehearsal room is what I want the song to sound like on the final recordings… Meaning it is entirely composed for a seamless transition between a studio and a live setting. Then, however, I sit down in the studio, and the ideas start flowing out of me and I can’t help myself but add more to the existing formula. I mean, the DNA of the song stays the same, but I always find myself being like ‘Man… this sounds bare right here… maybe add a little harmonized riff? Or a little lick to round it out? Or this, or that?’ Everything fucking time.”

What is your writing process like?

“The writing process for us varies. Generally, it follows a proven formula that has been established over the past couple of years. Most tunes start as an idea that I formulate. This could be nothing more than a little riff to a completely structured tune that is 90 percent done. Then I pass the idea along to the fellas, get their feedback, and continue to shape the idea. Finally, after a bit of back and forth and refinement, we bring the tune into the rehearsal space and jam on it. Over these few hours of jamming, we may find that nothing changes, or that everything changes. Generally, though, by the end of this few hour-long rehearsal, the song is pretty much finished from an instrumentation standpoint.

“For the vocal side of things, that is a total crapshoot. Sometimes I am not done with the melody until I’m singing the tune in the studio. But sometimes the melody comes to me in the initial demo. It all depends, and there is no rhyme or reason to the vocals. One thing is for certain though, lyrics are always the absolute last piece of the pie. I never write lyrics before having everything in place.”

Tell us about your experience going it alone as an artist. How hard is it to get your music distributed, promoted, shared, etc?

“Throughout most of our career, we have been releasing music independently. We actually have had only one release that was not done internally (2021’s South of the Sun). Like anything else, releasing music independently is an evolutionary process that gets easier the more you do it as you gain more knowledge on the subject.

“When we released our first album in 2015, I can confidently say I had no idea what I was doing. I was doing what most artists do when starting out. Just throwing the tracks up online, making a few posts, sending a few terribly formatted emails to random bigshot publications, and hoping for the best. Naturally, though, you start picking up on the dos and don’ts of the industry, and start meeting individuals whose services coincide with your needs thus beginning working relationships. Nowadays, we have a little team assembled that makes everything happen. So it’s cool to see the evolution of the business side of things. It certainly makes things run smoother despite the operation being infinitely larger.”

Do you have anything you’d like to tell any fans reading right now?

“I’d like to tell our fans one thing: thank you! Without the support, we wouldn’t be able to do the things that we want to do and continuously find inspiration to work on our craft, tour, and release new music. Would we still be creatives without fans? Duh. But without your support, we would not be doing what we are doing right now. And for that, I owe all the gratitude in the world to each and every individual who supports us and our vision. Mwah!”

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Dave Annable Discusses His Role as Zoe Saldaña’s Husband on ‘Special Ops: Lioness’



Dave Annable
Dave Annable

From Academy Award nominee Taylor Sheridan, the espionage thriller features a star-studded cast, including series lead and executive producer Zoe Saldaña, Laysla De Oliveira, Emmy Award nominee Michael Kelly (whom we interview here), with Academy Award winner Morgan Freeman, and Academy Award winner and executive producer Nicole Kidman. Special Ops: Lioness, a series produced by MTV Entertainment Studios and 101 Studios, debuted on Paramount+ last summer as the streamer’s #1 most-watched global series premiere on launch day. Special Ops: Lioness is now available on Blu-ray™ and DVD from Paramount Home Entertainment as a 3-disc set that includes all eight episodes and over 90 minutes of bonus content, including two new featurettes and behind-the-scenes of every episode!

Lioness is a show based on a real-life CIA program. It follows Cruz Manuelos (De Oliveira), a rough-around-the-edges but passionate young Marine recruited to join the CIA’s Lioness Engagement Team to help bring down a terrorist organization from within. Zoe Saldaña plays Joe, the station chief of the Lioness program tasked with training, managing, and leading her female undercover operatives. The series is astounding and ranks amongst the best of the year. Lioness also features series regulars Dave Annable, Jill Wagner, LaMonica Garrett, James Jordan, Austin Hébert, Jonah Wharton, Stephanie Nur, and Hannah Love Lanier.

Top surgeon Neal McNamara has little information about his wife Joe’s government job. Suffice it to say she shows up at home exhibiting various states of PTSD and visits her family for small increments of time before deployment to parts unknown. Joe is a team lead for the Lioness special operatives program, managing deep undercover female operatives attempting to get close to high-level foreign government targets. The series starts with a bang and never lets up. Special Ops: Lioness is the newest addition to Taylor Sheridan’s growing oeuvre of captivating television. Sheridan’s work includes Yellowstone, 1923, 1883, Mayor Of Kingstown, Tulsa King, and the upcoming series Lawman: Bass Reeves and Land Man.

Special Ops: Season 1 Special Features:

Go undercover with the stars of Special Ops: Lioness with a behind-the-scenes look into the heart of The Lioness program, inspired by an actual U.S. Military program. Special Ops: Lioness includes behind-the-scenes episodes and two brand-new featurettes. Dive into interviews with the star-studded cast, get an immersive glimpse into the intricate world of the Lioness program, and explore the rigorous training required to make the series as authentic as possible.

  • Embedded With Special Ops: Lioness
  • Battle Forged Calm: Tactics & Training

We thank Dave Annable for taking the time last week to field a few questions for V13 Media. The audio (on SoundCloud) and video are available here if you’d prefer to hear Dave’s answers in real-time.

Can you talk a little bit about what working on a Taylor Sheridan project is like?

Dave Annable: “Working on a Taylor show is incredible. My bread and butter has been doing television my whole career. And this is just a whole other level. The budgets, cast, and writing are top-notch in their particular fields. And coming together, it feels like this incredible circus to be a part of.

“And this show specifically, you know, when you got Nicole Kidman and Morgan Freeman, Zoe Saldaña and Michael Kelly, the stars kept coming, and you just felt the gravity of the show – the immenseness of the show. It was just incredible to be a part of; I love it. And it was cool because I only saw the family stuff. But then, when I was watching the show as a viewer, I was like, ‘Man, this is awesome – they’re crushing it.’ Everybody just was really involved in the story and the spy aspect of it. And then, of course, the spy’s got to come home! It was just incredible to be a part of it.”

Neal was my favourite character on the show. You brought a brevity to the show that was very different from what it was about. You grounded everything, and I applaud you for that.

“Oh, thank you. I read the pilot many years ago, and Taylor came to me with it and it was an obvious yes, no matter what. But, you know, Neal was only in three scenes in the pilot (3-4 scenes), and, you know, that character and other shows can be very one-dimensional. He could be, you know, the sounding board when she comes home from work, and he offers advice, and then that’s it, you know? I was blown away when I opened the script for the second episode, where we see Neal at work in the hospital, what he has to do, and what he is like.

“Taylor is just so good; He’s carving out this character. He’s showing that he’s a human being, and he’s going to have his issues that he’s got to deal with. And then, having a wife who’s a spy, they can’t talk at night about their jobs. And then having to deal with kids, the everyday stuff that a normal father would have to deal with. I was very blown away by Taylor’s writing; he crushed it.”

“Special Ops: Lioness” still

“Special Ops: Lioness” still

Neal’s scenes with his daughter, especially, hit home with me. Some of those speeches were just on point – so well done.

“Well, what’s funny is that we had a rehearsal before we started shooting, right? We were at Taylor’s ranch and had the cast around with Taylor. And he was sort of hand-picking scenes for the characters to read. And he chose that scene, Neal talking to his daughter after the car accident. You know, I was reading it out loud, and I came in sort of hot, you know, and I was like kind of pissed. And at the end, he goes, ‘No, no, no, Dave. Neal’s already lost. You’ve lost, right? No yelling is going to help her.’ And he’s like, ‘This is the softest you can be.’ And, you know, he was right. He was right.

“And I think, you know, I was taking notes. It was like, shit if my daughter’s in there? I want to talk like Neal. I don’t want to talk like Dave because I would get that wrong, you know? So he just nailed it. I’ve gotten a lot of love (specifically from a lot of men) that needs to be directed towards Taylor for that scene because that’s a very challenging thing, I’d imagine, to talk to your daughter like that. And my instincts were dead wrong, so don’t thank me!”

Were you cast early on in Lioness? Did you watch the crew kind of build up?

“It’s an interesting story because I was doing a flashback season four Yellowstone episode. At the time he called me to come back to that, he’s like, ‘There’s also this other show I want to talk to you about, playing Neal, the husband of Zoe Saldaña in a show called Lioness.’ and I said ‘I’m in.’ Then I read it, and I was like ‘Oh my gosh I’m even MORE in!’ Then, it went away for almost three years with COVID, scheduling, etc. Then somebody else took over Lioness, I believe. It wasn’t Taylor, and you know, a friend of mine was like, ‘Oh, my friend just went in to audition for Neal for Lioness.’ And I was like, ‘Wait, what?!’ I was like, wait a second?

“So Taylor had just taken it back over, and we reconnected, and he’s like, ‘you’ve always been the guy for me – you’re the guy. Would you come do it?’ ‘In a heartbeat!’ It was a wild ride. But here we are, and I’m just so grateful to be a part of a show I genuinely loved. You know, that doesn’t always happen, so this is really very cool for me.”

“Special Ops: Lioness” poster artwork

“Special Ops: Lioness” poster artwork

Can you talk about what it’s like working on a show with so much talent in it? Is there added pressure? Or is it easier because everybody’s just so good?

“I think both. Both things can exist. You feel it for sure. You know, it’s Taylor. When Yellowstone came out, Taylor was big, but he wasn’t, you know, Taylor-Sheridan-eight-shows-on-Paramount-Plus Taylor Sheridan. Right? So then this comes, and it’s Zoe and Nicole. And so, yeah, you feel it. But then when I specifically got on set, and you act across from these folks, you realize, ‘Oh, this is easy because they’re so good,’ right? Like a good actor is a given.

“And to be able to sort of play tennis back and forth with these superstars, it makes you better. And, you know, I was fortunate enough to be on Brothers and Sisters. It was my first real big job, and acting across from, you know, Sally Field and Calista Flockhart and Matthew Reese made me much better. You learn a lot from those actors. So, you know, I feel the same now.”

What memories come to mind when you walk on set for your first day? What sticks out for you?

“Well, it’s a funny story, Mike. Because our first day of shooting was actually the bedroom scenes with Zoe and I. We had met once, briefly, before that. So it was really, it was terrible, you know? Thankfully, we were able to sort of make jokes about it because it’s so weird and awkward. We’ve got a weird job. But it was like, ‘Hey, I’m Dave,’ you know? ‘Let’s hop in bed with a bunch of people watching!’ But I think it really did bring us together. And it got a lot of the awkwardness out, and we were just able to really sort of dive in and get gritty and play this real couple.”

“Special Ops: Lioness” still

“Special Ops: Lioness” still

Do you have a process that you like to adhere to when you’re prepping for a role, and do you find it changes from part to part?

“Yeah, my imagination can only get me so far, right? So it was very cool, specifically on this show. I got to sit and study with Dr. Russell Ward, who’s a surgical oncologist here in Texas. And he was inviting me into a surgery he was doing on a 12-year-old who fell out of a tree and broke his knee. So I was able to be in the room, experience it, talk to him about having to deliver bad news to parents and find out what that’s like.

“And more importantly, what is that like when you go home? Is that something that you bring to your conversations with your wife or your kids? All that stuff. So that was very eye-opening for me. Already having so much respect for medical professionals, it’s exponentially more when you see the day-to-day and you get to grind with them. Because we’re in and out usually, we see the doctor, and they fix us. But spending a day with them and seeing the patients and learning what their day really is and how hard it is – is my favourite part of my job, for sure. Learning about whatever job or relationship that the character is in.”

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The Narcissist Cookbook Interview: Matt Johnston Takes Listeners Behind The Music

Matt Johnston, creative behind The Narcissist Cookbook, shares insight into their music, creative process, memorable moments, and more.



The Narcissist Cookbook, photo by Regenweibchen Photography
The Narcissist Cookbook, photo by Regenweibchen Photography

Born and raised on the picturesque island of Arran off the west coast of Scotland, The Narcissist Cookbook, led by the enigmatic Matt Johnston, has carved a distinctive path in the music scene. Fully self-taught and driven by the rebellious spirit of punk, Johnston’s musical journey unfolded through busking, playing in bars, and navigating the complexities of life. However, a dark period, including the loss of their voice for nine months and a deep dive into substance abuse, spurred a transformation. Experimenting with spoken monologues inspired by diverse influences, The Narcissist Cookbook emerged, using the guitar to amplify the power of their words.

Their recent album, This Is How We Get Better, marked a turning point in The Narcissist Cookbook’s career. It helped propel them into the spotlight. With a devoted global fanbase and a sold-out UK tour, Johnston witnessed unforgettable moments. Venues were filled to capacity, and meet-and-greet lines stretched for hours. Their unapologetic approach to songwriting lends itself to listeners seeking honest, introspective, and fearless musical narratives. The core message revolves around self-acceptance and acknowledging the parts of oneself that may be deemed too scary or vulnerable. The Narcissist Cookbook encourages fans to embrace their fears through music and storytelling, believing that true healing comes from openness rather than hiding.

Looking ahead to 2024, The Narcissist Cookbook aims for international tours and the release of a 40-minute compilation album. It will feature the highly-requested “Courtney (Director’s Cut).” Johnston is also crafting a new album, MYTH. That album will explore codependency, fairytales, and a haunted children’s book-on-tape. V13 sat down with Johnston to dive deeper into who they are as an artist and what has shaped their career thus far.

For those not familiar with your band can you tell us a little bit about yourselves?

Matt Johnston: “My name is Matt Johnston (they/them), I’m a Scottish writer who fuses monologues and storytelling with songwriting. I’ve just finished a sold-out tour of the UK playing to ~1000 people across seven shows.”

What is the story behind your band/stage name?

“I lost my singing voice badly in 2015 for around nine months and started writing monologues and spoken pieces so I would have something to perform even when I couldn’t sing. But I had a bunch of voices, – internal and external, telling me that it was preposterously self-involved to think anyone would be interested to hear me just talking. The name the Narcissist Cookbook was like a shield to protect myself from that criticism. I’m levelling the criticism I’m most afraid of at myself before anyone else can, you know?”

How would you describe your creative process?

“A lot of the time my creative process is sitting down to write or record something and realizing I haven’t got a clue what I’m doing, and treading water with the hope of something decent coming along to fish me out. A lot of the time my tracks are coming from pinpointing something I’m too scared to talk about. Then I use the writing process to kick-start the emotional process of figuring out why I’m so scared to say the thing. Other times I’m more like a frustrated painter. I see visuals, landscapes, characters in my head but because I can’t draw to save my life I’m left using the mediums I’m somewhat proficient at: songwriting and monologues to try and get those images out of my head.”

Who are your biggest influences?

“I love Sidney Gish’s songs. I actually managed to catch her live in the UK supporting some band or other last year, after assuming she’d never make it over here. I think I was one of maybe ten people who were there exclusively to see her. The theatricality of Say Anything has been a huge influence, the way Max Bemis can squeeze meaning out of words through his performance always felt like it went beyond simply singing.

“I’m also a huge fan of both Amanda Palmer and Neil Gaiman, and in particular the triple live album they put out was a massive influence on how I approach writing and recording and the bleeding line between storytelling and songwriting, behind the scenes and front of house.”

What’s the best criticism you’ve ever received about your music or performance?

“Oh wow. I did have someone tell me, and not early on into the Narcissist Cookbook project either, that they could tell that on some level I didn’t believe I should be on the stage performing this stuff. That got under my skin because, in a way, they were right. Maybe it’s strange but the bigger the audiences have gotten the harder I’ve needed to work before the shows to tell myself that people are here to see me, that they’re here to sing along and have a good time. It’s not quite stage fright, it’s something else.

“For someone who has spent a long time honing what they do to get people to pay attention, when people did start paying attention I found it hard to cope with. Most nights I get past it easily. But there was one night in London in 2022 where I had a full-on panic attack on stage and barely held it together.”

What was the highlight of the last tour you went on?

“I can’t lie, going on stage every night and hearing the room sing my songs back to me, and recite my monologues along with me, I hadn’t gotten used to it by the end of the tour and I doubt I’ll be used to it by the start of the next one. But beyond that, the meet and greet lines after the show often went on for an hour or more. I got to meet all these amazing people who had tattoos of my work or had made fan art or fan clothing, whole jackets with hand-stitched lyrics covering every inch of the fabric, too much to recount here. And all just the most wonderful, kind people. I’m wildly excited to get out there and see and meet more of them.”

What’s the funniest thing that’s ever happened at one of your shows or on tour?

“My show in Berlin landed on Halloween, and so I brought along this insane costume I put together a few years earlier. A character called Beanman made up of a baked bean mask, a baked bean vest and baked bean sweatpants. It’s honestly horrifying to look at. It seems to set off the fight or flight response in about 20 percent of people who encounter it.

“Anyway, I dressed up as Beanman for the Berlin show and when I went on stage I got to hear the cheers slowly change to groans of discomfort as I walked into view. Excellent. Ten out of ten experience. Very funny for me, potentially traumatizing for everyone else. After that, I received a whole bunch of Beanman fanart which now lives on my wall in my rehearsal space.”

What are you still trying to figure out?

“I’m always trying to figure out what the scariest thing I could do for my next project is. With my album MOTH (2017), I wanted to see if I could get away with an album where the second half is almost all spoken. For HYMN (2019), I had the terrifying idea to base an album around one song being rewritten and rewritten over and over again. On This Is How We Get Better (2021) I’d gotten worried that my albums would fall apart without a solid concept to tie them together, so I put out something much more freeform.

“On MYTH (coming 2024) I’m playing with an idea I’ve had for a few years. It’s doing things with album structure and storytelling that I’m not sure I can get away with, and that’s always the most exciting place for me to be.”

The Narcissist Cookbook by Regenweibchen Photography

The Narcissist Cookbook by Regenweibchen Photography

Politics and music. Yay, nay or what the hay?

“My music has been overtly political from the start. I can’t avoid it because that’s who I am. Is it cliche yet to say all art is political? I feel like that’s the stock answer. Anyway, it is. Unfortunately for some artists, refusing to take a political stance is a political stance. I make music for me, music that makes me happy and which represents me, and so my audience unsurprisingly consists of people like me. Neurodiverse people, queer people, people who value compassion and are tired of society hurting their loved ones. I want those people to know I see them, that I respect them and want them to be happy. And the easiest way to do that, the way that is least ambiguous, is just to fucking say it and not hide behind fake nothing statements like Love Is Love.

“Conversely, I want people who don’t want what’s best for my people to know I don’t like them and don’t want them at my shows or in my community. Because them being there makes my people less safe in a very real way. So yeah, I don’t hide my politics. I feel like doing that is a disservice to people who are sometimes committing a courageous act just stepping out their front door, let alone into a music venue full of strangers.”

Share one thing about the band that has never before been revealed.

“I used a sample from an… adult film in one of my tracks. Not for any particularly perverse reasons, but because it fits surprisingly well in the original recording session. When I tried taking it out it made the track feel diminished. You almost certainly wouldn’t know it to hear it. To anyone reading this, no I will not clarify which track unless someone manages to pinpoint the exact clip from the exact video.”

Tell us about your experience going it alone as an artist. How hard is it to get your music distributed, promoted, shared, etc?

“In 2024 it’s easier than ever to put your music out there without a queue of middlemen making things unnecessarily convoluted and insisting on their cut. It used to be that you couldn’t get played on the radio or even get your music in physical stores without a distribution deal or a label behind you. Now, my music is in the same place as Bad Bunny and Taylor Swift, and the same place as the person who recorded an album on their iPhone and uploaded it through Routenote or wherever.

“We all share the same storefront now and that is devastating to the traditional music business which has historically relied on gatekeeping and other underhanded tactics to ringfence and protect their investments. I love being independent because I am in total control of the decisions I make, the music I write and record, how I promote it, how I portray myself on social media and live, what shows I take on, etc. I don’t have a team of people all looking to get paid. The only person I need to worry about pleasing is me. That’s a very comfortable place to be as a creator.”

What’s next for you?

“More touring, bigger shows, more people to meet and hug/shake hands with. I’ve got a new album coming out this year, and a compilation vinyl that’s going to put one of my most requested songs, the full eight-minute version of my 2018 song ‘Courtney’ that I’ve been performing live for the past couple of years, on streaming services for the first time. And second season of the songwriting podcast Jam Mechanics which I host with Bug Hunter.”

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